4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Ben Syverson · July 26th, 2004, 10:14 AM

You guys, you can search post-by-post. Just enter your search terms, and select "Alternative Imaging Methods" in the forum popup, and then select "Show results as posts" rather than "Show results as threads." Show results as threads is useless, because it's like "4 results found in 4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project!" Great... very helpful. :)

Juan: please don't stop posting--Matthew and I were just ribbing you a bit. I understand what you're saying, you just have unrealistic expectations sometimes. Try to keep in mind that these systems are extraordinarily experimental right now. But keep giving us your feedback!

@Wayne: "I forgot to mention the use of Firewire B is dissapionting, unlewss it can gaurantee 100MB/s (after overheads) like we can get out of Gigabit Ethernet."

The "800" in Firewire 800 is 800 gigabits. So 800/8 == 100 MB per second. Unlike USB2, that rate is sustained. Technically, all FW800 equipment should be rated and usable at the maximum data rate sustained. So it theoretically can guarantee 100MB/sec, just like GigaE. Also, if you just really want GigabitEthernet, Sumix will likely deliver it sometime after FW800.

For me, FW800 is more than enough. 1920x1080 at 12bit at 24fps is 71.2MB/sec. I don't think I'll be shooting 1080p, but it's nice to know I can over FW800. I'll probably be shooting 720p, because it's more manageable.

Also, I like the idea of one cable to power the camera and transfer data. With GigabitEthernet, you'll need to plug the camera in or figure out some battery system. I don't like hacking stuff like that together.

Also @Wayne: the systems taht Frank mentioned were cool, but it'll be a cold day in hell when I invest in an obscure, overpriced "standard" like CameraLink.

- ben

Wayne Morellini · July 26th, 2004, 10:47 AM

I am going to bed now. But my concern with firewire (because I can't remember) was that interfaces have error correction and routing overheads. If firewire B doesn't have this strructure (I think USB2 does) then I will be happy, but I don't remember if Firewire has extra signaling cable to handle this? Also Firewire tops out at 3.2GB/s, Ethernet will go to 10GB/s eventually, and Gigbe is standard on newer boards.

Looking to the future eventually we will be using 8MP and 32MP cameras (even in 3 chip form) (not to mention the high FPS people here), that is why I prefered GBE as a standard. I think firewire is great myself (the Mac people will LOVE you now ;). If they announced 10Gb Firewire tomorrow, I would be torn. Well at least the future 1.6GB/s Firewire B should support 3 chip 1080, and single chip 8MP. I understand your piont of veiw, it is simular to my own personal one, I just have different ones for the project itself.

Ben, have a look at the cameralink homepage links I posted in the technical thread, there is a lot of support and they are definetly cheaper than HD-SDI setups. They also support USB and Gigbe, that might be what you are using.

Rob, what about all these different interfaces, are we going to see support? Maybe if the software could plug into these interfaces through some standard API?

I aim to get well designed power solutions for the ENG case and camera. If USB2 was 800Mb/s instead I would prefer it (if it had the timing and low cpu use of firewire), USB3, where art you.

I wonder if we can pick up a descent sensor camera for $200.

Thanks

Wayne.

Ben Syverson · July 26th, 2004, 10:58 AM

Once again Wayne gives us the very big picture -- hopefully in the near future we will all be shooting with $200 3 chip 32megapixel cameras in slow motion over 10GB/sec interfaces. I salute your research, Wayne -- may all your predictions come true!

For now I'm just trying to get 10 bit on my 1.3megapixel camera over USB2. :)

Wayne Morellini · July 26th, 2004, 11:11 AM

Big Laugh ;)

That's not exactly what I meant, I mean't $200 720p bayer USB/firewire type thing ;) Somebody picked up one for $60 but it was a dog and he didn't even bother trying to get it past 15fps

That big picture is also really the end game (well VR environments could theorectically go to 66K or so pixels accross, ouch).

Ben Syverson · July 26th, 2004, 12:52 PM

Wayne, I think that camera had a built-in lens? I wouldn't buy something without C-mount -- you never know what kind of plastic optics you'll get. :)

I shot a few more tests -- I really can't wait to get the 12-10-12 software. I hope it improves the color situation. However, in the mean time, this camera is perfectly usable. There is a good deal of banding in color gradations once you crank up the chroma. But for some shots it's barely noticeable.

These are 100% quality .jpgs -- unless you guys really want uncompressed PNGs to test with, I'll just continue posting these high-quality jpgs.

Ivy on the wall

Some shrubs

Brick walkway -- nice + bland color, Juan! :)

Door and flowers across the way

- ben

Eric Gorski · July 26th, 2004, 01:28 PM

ben,
i beg of you to post a short video clip with some panning so that i can see how bad the strobbing is. obin also had problems with his camera where the bottom of the image would have to 'catch up' to the top of the image and you'd get a smearing of the image...

Ben Syverson · July 26th, 2004, 01:53 PM

Okay -- here you go. This was taken at 24mhz, so the effect is greatest. If you shoot at 40mhz, there seems to be much less of this effect.

- ben

Edit: in that first pan, I'm tilting the camera a little bit I think -- this was handheld. You can get the best sense of the effect by looking at when I go back + forth -- that "skew" is what we're talking about.

Personally, it doesn't really bother me, but there is absolutely no pleasing some people on this board.

Frank Roberts · July 26th, 2004, 02:19 PM

Pan quicker. I felt like I was in Bourne Supremacy for a second.

Ben Syverson · July 26th, 2004, 02:48 PM

You can get a sense of it from that clip.

Eric Gorski · July 26th, 2004, 03:06 PM

thanks for the clip.

could you do one at 40mhz so i can see the camera at its best.

thanks.

Ben Syverson · July 26th, 2004, 03:08 PM

We have to resolve a software issue before I do 40mhz -- right now you can only capture at full frame rate in video mode.

Obin Olson · July 26th, 2004, 03:50 PM

I thought that the IBIS5 chip is NOT rolling shutter Ben??

Ben how hard do you have to push that thing in post to get ok colors from it?

Ben Syverson · July 26th, 2004, 03:55 PM

Obin, the IBIS5 is rolling shutter, although it supports global shutter for single frame operation. Or maybe that's just how the Sumix software works.

You don't have to push very hard to get good colors -- just multiply the chroma channels by 2. However, 8bit doesn't quite have enough information to let you do that without banding. Even 9 bit (twice as many values) would take care of the problem, so any form of 10 bit (log, linear) will be great.

- ben

Anders Holck Petersen · July 26th, 2004, 03:57 PM

Don't know if anyone find this interesting, but it's fun to have for comparison:

Here is a Raw Filmstream Viper frame from Cinematography.net.
It's a 16 bit .PSD file, with a Raw uncorrected layer and a seperate color-correction adjustment layer. You need Photoshop CS to Open it....

www.andersholck.com/media/viper.psd.zip

Anhar Miah · July 26th, 2004, 05:53 PM

@ Wayne

Cheer up! :) dont lose heart, your hard work is very much appreciated,

I would love to help, but i dont have anything to contribute thus far, if i do have anything i will, without doubt helpout.

I remember you saying earlier about Batteries/ power supplies, well the Best/ cheapest option IMHO is the electroyava super poymer litium Ion (can run a laptop full blast for well over 18 hours*)

*if memory serves me right! so dont qoute me!! :)

i'll post the link again if you want, just gimme a shout

Cheers & good luck to every one!

July 26th, 2004, 03:57 PM	#1109
Anders Holck Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 59	Viper Framegrab Don't know if anyone find this interesting, but it's fun to have for comparison: Here is a Raw Filmstream Viper frame from Cinematography.net. It's a 16 bit .PSD file, with a Raw uncorrected layer and a seperate color-correction adjustment layer. You need Photoshop CS to Open it.... www.andersholck.com/media/viper.psd.zip

July 26th, 2004, 05:53 PM	#1110
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	Dont lose heart @ Wayne Cheer up! :) dont lose heart, your hard work is very much appreciated, I would love to help, but i dont have anything to contribute thus far, if i do have anything i will, without doubt helpout. I remember you saying earlier about Batteries/ power supplies, well the Best/ cheapest option IMHO is the electroyava super poymer litium Ion (can run a laptop full blast for well over 18 hours) if memory serves me right! so dont qoute me!! :) i'll post the link again if you want, just gimme a shout Cheers & good luck to every one!

July 26th, 2004, 10:14 AM	#1096
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	You guys, you can search post-by-post. Just enter your search terms, and select "Alternative Imaging Methods" in the forum popup, and then select "Show results as posts" rather than "Show results as threads." Show results as threads is useless, because it's like "4 results found in 4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project!" Great... very helpful. :) Juan: please don't stop posting--Matthew and I were just ribbing you a bit. I understand what you're saying, you just have unrealistic expectations sometimes. Try to keep in mind that these systems are extraordinarily experimental right now. But keep giving us your feedback! @Wayne: "I forgot to mention the use of Firewire B is dissapionting, unlewss it can gaurantee 100MB/s (after overheads) like we can get out of Gigabit Ethernet." The "800" in Firewire 800 is 800 gigabits. So 800/8 == 100 MB per second. Unlike USB2, that rate is sustained. Technically, all FW800 equipment should be rated and usable at the maximum data rate sustained. So it theoretically can guarantee 100MB/sec, just like GigaE. Also, if you just really want GigabitEthernet, Sumix will likely deliver it sometime after FW800. For me, FW800 is more than enough. 1920x1080 at 12bit at 24fps is 71.2MB/sec. I don't think I'll be shooting 1080p, but it's nice to know I can over FW800. I'll probably be shooting 720p, because it's more manageable. Also, I like the idea of one cable to power the camera and transfer data. With GigabitEthernet, you'll need to plug the camera in or figure out some battery system. I don't like hacking stuff like that together. Also @Wayne: the systems taht Frank mentioned were cool, but it'll be a cold day in hell when I invest in an obscure, overpriced "standard" like CameraLink. - ben

July 26th, 2004, 10:47 AM	#1097
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I am going to bed now. But my concern with firewire (because I can't remember) was that interfaces have error correction and routing overheads. If firewire B doesn't have this strructure (I think USB2 does) then I will be happy, but I don't remember if Firewire has extra signaling cable to handle this? Also Firewire tops out at 3.2GB/s, Ethernet will go to 10GB/s eventually, and Gigbe is standard on newer boards. Looking to the future eventually we will be using 8MP and 32MP cameras (even in 3 chip form) (not to mention the high FPS people here), that is why I prefered GBE as a standard. I think firewire is great myself (the Mac people will LOVE you now ;). If they announced 10Gb Firewire tomorrow, I would be torn. Well at least the future 1.6GB/s Firewire B should support 3 chip 1080, and single chip 8MP. I understand your piont of veiw, it is simular to my own personal one, I just have different ones for the project itself. Ben, have a look at the cameralink homepage links I posted in the technical thread, there is a lot of support and they are definetly cheaper than HD-SDI setups. They also support USB and Gigbe, that might be what you are using. Rob, what about all these different interfaces, are we going to see support? Maybe if the software could plug into these interfaces through some standard API? I aim to get well designed power solutions for the ENG case and camera. If USB2 was 800Mb/s instead I would prefer it (if it had the timing and low cpu use of firewire), USB3, where art you. I wonder if we can pick up a descent sensor camera for $200. Thanks Wayne.

July 26th, 2004, 10:58 AM	#1098
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Once again Wayne gives us the very big picture -- hopefully in the near future we will all be shooting with $200 3 chip 32megapixel cameras in slow motion over 10GB/sec interfaces. I salute your research, Wayne -- may all your predictions come true! For now I'm just trying to get 10 bit on my 1.3megapixel camera over USB2. :)

July 26th, 2004, 11:11 AM	#1099
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Big Laugh ;) That's not exactly what I meant, I mean't $200 720p bayer USB/firewire type thing ;) Somebody picked up one for $60 but it was a dog and he didn't even bother trying to get it past 15fps That big picture is also really the end game (well VR environments could theorectically go to 66K or so pixels accross, ouch).

July 26th, 2004, 12:52 PM	#1100
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Wayne, I think that camera had a built-in lens? I wouldn't buy something without C-mount -- you never know what kind of plastic optics you'll get. :) I shot a few more tests -- I really can't wait to get the 12-10-12 software. I hope it improves the color situation. However, in the mean time, this camera is perfectly usable. There is a good deal of banding in color gradations once you crank up the chroma. But for some shots it's barely noticeable. These are 100% quality .jpgs -- unless you guys really want uncompressed PNGs to test with, I'll just continue posting these high-quality jpgs. Ivy on the wall Some shrubs Brick walkway -- nice + bland color, Juan! :) Door and flowers across the way - ben

July 26th, 2004, 01:28 PM	#1101
Eric Gorski Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Western Oregon Posts: 138	ben, i beg of you to post a short video clip with some panning so that i can see how bad the strobbing is. obin also had problems with his camera where the bottom of the image would have to 'catch up' to the top of the image and you'd get a smearing of the image...

July 26th, 2004, 01:53 PM	#1102
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Okay -- here you go. This was taken at 24mhz, so the effect is greatest. If you shoot at 40mhz, there seems to be much less of this effect. - ben Edit: in that first pan, I'm tilting the camera a little bit I think -- this was handheld. You can get the best sense of the effect by looking at when I go back + forth -- that "skew" is what we're talking about. Personally, it doesn't really bother me, but there is absolutely no pleasing some people on this board.

July 26th, 2004, 02:19 PM	#1103
Frank Roberts New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: los angeles,ca Posts: 23	Pan quicker. I felt like I was in Bourne Supremacy for a second.

July 26th, 2004, 02:48 PM	#1104
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	You can get a sense of it from that clip.

July 26th, 2004, 03:06 PM	#1105
Eric Gorski Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Western Oregon Posts: 138	thanks for the clip. could you do one at 40mhz so i can see the camera at its best. thanks.

July 26th, 2004, 03:08 PM	#1106
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	We have to resolve a software issue before I do 40mhz -- right now you can only capture at full frame rate in video mode.

July 26th, 2004, 03:50 PM	#1107
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I thought that the IBIS5 chip is NOT rolling shutter Ben?? Ben how hard do you have to push that thing in post to get ok colors from it?

July 26th, 2004, 03:55 PM	#1108
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Obin, the IBIS5 is rolling shutter, although it supports global shutter for single frame operation. Or maybe that's just how the Sumix software works. You don't have to push very hard to get good colors -- just multiply the chroma channels by 2. However, 8bit doesn't quite have enough information to let you do that without banding. Even 9 bit (twice as many values) would take care of the problem, so any form of 10 bit (log, linear) will be great. - ben