4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 23rd, 2004, 10:11 AM

The first thing I can tell you is that if it is one frame, it has been written as 16 bit.

Ben Syverson · July 23rd, 2004, 10:14 AM

Juan,

If you have a Mac, open up the file from within GraphicConverter. Set the filter to RAW, and then use these settings:
Grayscale, Unsigned Short, Black is $00, Intel Number Format, and then click "Guess." Voila.

Basically, the file is an array of unsigned shorts (it's 16bit) -- but I think the data is 10bit (padded).

- ben

Les Dit · July 23rd, 2004, 10:44 AM

You can put an 8 bit image into a 16 bit file. Just because photoshop shows it as mode 16 bit is not a guarantee that you have X number of bits. To be absolutely sure, look at the histogram of the image after brightening it ( multiply X 4 ). You should be no missing values.
I hope this isn't too confusing.
-Les

Ben Syverson · July 23rd, 2004, 11:16 AM

Les, it looks like that's what's happening. I thought the data might be 10-bit, but it seems to be 8-bit data in a 16bit file. Why the programmers/developers would let you double the file size for no gain is strange.

And you have to multiply 8 bit by a lot more than 4 to get a full-range image -- try multiplying by 256. (65536/256 == 256)

I think I made a mistake -- the file seems to be 12bit after all. You can open the file directly in Photoshop by setting the format in the open window to "Photoshop Raw", setting the bitdepth to 16, byte order to IBM PC and w/h to 1280x720. Then if you apply a Levels with the input white set to 16, you should get the whole range. If it were 8 bit, you'd have to set the input white much much lower.

After doing some tests, it looks like we have all 4096 values.

- ben

Les Dit · July 23rd, 2004, 01:16 PM

4096 values out of a 10 bit camera?
Interesting.
-Les

Ben Syverson · July 23rd, 2004, 01:51 PM

The data is 12 bit. I believe the camera is as well.

- ben

Jason Rodriguez · July 23rd, 2004, 01:52 PM

Sorry, not to change the subject (too much),

but I was thinking about Hard-drives needed for the Altasens camera. I'm estimating around 3MB per frame for the 12-bit 1080p HD stuff in RAW Bayer format. Now at 24fps that's around 72MB/s for throughput, and at 60fps, it's going to be a whopping 180MB/s. Even 48fps is going to be a pretty hefty amount of throughput.

So will 2 SATA drives in an RAID 0 have the capabilty of recording this stuff? The Kontron board that we were looking at with PCI-X, I'm not sure how many PCI-X slots it's going to have. We'd need at least two slots, one for the frame-grabber card, and another for something like the RocketRAID 1820a to support all those hard-drives needed for that amount of throughput.

Hmm, this will be interesting.

Quote:

The data is 12 bit. I believe the camera is as well.

Then how come Steve has said that the Micron has a 10bit A/D? Is this something in the framegrabber that's expanding the bit range to 12-bits?

Ben Syverson · July 23rd, 2004, 02:05 PM

I have no idea. All I know is that the data in this file goes from 0 - 4096.

Eric Gorski · July 23rd, 2004, 03:17 PM

hey ben,
when are you getting your camera? i want a review.

Ben Syverson · July 23rd, 2004, 03:29 PM

Eric, I got the camera yesterday -- I would have been all set up, but my ancient Iomega USB cdrom drive bit the dust. So I had to go out today and get a new drive to install XP with (instead of an optical drive on the recording laptop, I'm putting a second hard drive in the bay).

You can see a photo of the cam here

It's seriously teeny! Check out its tiny C-mount lens here! I'm used to C-mount lenses for 16mm which are about twice as big.

The lens and the camera both are really well put together -- 100% metal construction. The optics in the lens are exemplary -- it looks like a mini Nikkor. :)

Hopefully I'll be able to post some images in an hour or two -- once Windows XP is done vaccinating itself with 7,692 critical security updates ;)

Eric Gorski · July 23rd, 2004, 05:50 PM

awesome,
did it come with that lens?.. if so, what's the focal length (in 35mm terms)?

Ben Syverson · July 23rd, 2004, 06:01 PM

No, I bought the lens separately. I'm not sure exactly what it would be in 35mm terms, but it has about a 60 degree HFOV. It's 8mm -- I would put it at maybe a 30 or 35mm in 35mm terms.

Jason Rodriguez · July 23rd, 2004, 08:55 PM

So Ben, how does everything look?

If you can post some footage that would be very cool :-)

Obin Olson · July 23rd, 2004, 09:01 PM

I bought a cool 8-51mm zoom for mine..nice glass..gota tell you guys today was HELL.....never again will I try and shoot a "real" project with such a beta - no alph level product - if you can even call it a product!! I about lost it today trying to get everything setup for the shoot - after about 2 hours of dicking around I gave up and shot the scene with the dx100....!!! this is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM ready for production..NOT EVEN CLOSE AT ALL!!!

BTW this chip SUCKS! I was shooting a scene with lots of windows in the background and the smear from the hot windows was REALLY BAD...I don't think any of you could shoot professional stuff with this chip - I know I will never try again,,,I am sure the Altasense will be great but the Micron is bad

the whole computer on a cable is bad...I can see that I need to really focus on the camera-as-one-unit design and get that made...

O well I guess I learned somthing today atleast!

good news is that the capture software is moving along at a good pace..

anyone want to poke at making a proggy that converts the RAW format I sent you guys into a tiff/jpeg/avi/quicktime/some new codec? that we can edit from? in maybe 10bit? David? Rob?

BTW David does Combustion support your codec in 10bit? what about AfterEffects? how does color work in AfterEffects if your using the 10bit file and AfterEffects is 8bit OR 16bit but not 10??

I will now use this camera as a TEST camera only...when Altasense comes out I hope it's a "real" product ;)

David Newman · July 23rd, 2004, 09:43 PM

Obin,

The CineForm codec can be used within Combustion, but only as 8bit RGB (limitation of VfW.) AfterEffects is the same today but we are finishing up the IO module for AE to support the 16bit RGB (per channel) mode. This is only a couple of weeks away. I assume that combustion would need a similar IO module -- I haven't got their SDK.

July 23rd, 2004, 09:43 PM	#960
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Obin, The CineForm codec can be used within Combustion, but only as 8bit RGB (limitation of VfW.) AfterEffects is the same today but we are finishing up the IO module for AE to support the 16bit RGB (per channel) mode. This is only a couple of weeks away. I assume that combustion would need a similar IO module -- I haven't got their SDK. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

July 23rd, 2004, 10:11 AM	#946
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	The first thing I can tell you is that if it is one frame, it has been written as 16 bit.

July 23rd, 2004, 10:14 AM	#947
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Juan, If you have a Mac, open up the file from within GraphicConverter. Set the filter to RAW, and then use these settings: Grayscale, Unsigned Short, Black is $00, Intel Number Format, and then click "Guess." Voila. Basically, the file is an array of unsigned shorts (it's 16bit) -- but I think the data is 10bit (padded). - ben

July 23rd, 2004, 10:44 AM	#948
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	You can put an 8 bit image into a 16 bit file. Just because photoshop shows it as mode 16 bit is not a guarantee that you have X number of bits. To be absolutely sure, look at the histogram of the image after brightening it ( multiply X 4 ). You should be no missing values. I hope this isn't too confusing. -Les

July 23rd, 2004, 11:16 AM	#949
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Les, it looks like that's what's happening. I thought the data might be 10-bit, but it seems to be 8-bit data in a 16bit file. Why the programmers/developers would let you double the file size for no gain is strange. And you have to multiply 8 bit by a lot more than 4 to get a full-range image -- try multiplying by 256. (65536/256 == 256) I think I made a mistake -- the file seems to be 12bit after all. You can open the file directly in Photoshop by setting the format in the open window to "Photoshop Raw", setting the bitdepth to 16, byte order to IBM PC and w/h to 1280x720. Then if you apply a Levels with the input white set to 16, you should get the whole range. If it were 8 bit, you'd have to set the input white much much lower. After doing some tests, it looks like we have all 4096 values. - ben

July 23rd, 2004, 01:16 PM	#950
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	4096 values out of a 10 bit camera? Interesting. -Les

July 23rd, 2004, 01:51 PM	#951
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	The data is 12 bit. I believe the camera is as well. - ben

July 23rd, 2004, 02:05 PM	#953
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	I have no idea. All I know is that the data in this file goes from 0 - 4096.

July 23rd, 2004, 03:17 PM	#954
Eric Gorski Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Western Oregon Posts: 138	hey ben, when are you getting your camera? i want a review.

July 23rd, 2004, 03:29 PM	#955
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Eric, I got the camera yesterday -- I would have been all set up, but my ancient Iomega USB cdrom drive bit the dust. So I had to go out today and get a new drive to install XP with (instead of an optical drive on the recording laptop, I'm putting a second hard drive in the bay). You can see a photo of the cam here It's seriously teeny! Check out its tiny C-mount lens here! I'm used to C-mount lenses for 16mm which are about twice as big. The lens and the camera both are really well put together -- 100% metal construction. The optics in the lens are exemplary -- it looks like a mini Nikkor. :) Hopefully I'll be able to post some images in an hour or two -- once Windows XP is done vaccinating itself with 7,692 critical security updates ;)

July 23rd, 2004, 05:50 PM	#956
Eric Gorski Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Western Oregon Posts: 138	awesome, did it come with that lens?.. if so, what's the focal length (in 35mm terms)?

July 23rd, 2004, 06:01 PM	#957
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	No, I bought the lens separately. I'm not sure exactly what it would be in 35mm terms, but it has about a 60 degree HFOV. It's 8mm -- I would put it at maybe a 30 or 35mm in 35mm terms.

July 23rd, 2004, 08:55 PM	#958
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	So Ben, how does everything look? If you can post some footage that would be very cool :-)

July 23rd, 2004, 09:01 PM	#959
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I bought a cool 8-51mm zoom for mine..nice glass..gota tell you guys today was HELL.....never again will I try and shoot a "real" project with such a beta - no alph level product - if you can even call it a product!! I about lost it today trying to get everything setup for the shoot - after about 2 hours of dicking around I gave up and shot the scene with the dx100....!!! this is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM ready for production..NOT EVEN CLOSE AT ALL!!! BTW this chip SUCKS! I was shooting a scene with lots of windows in the background and the smear from the hot windows was REALLY BAD...I don't think any of you could shoot professional stuff with this chip - I know I will never try again,,,I am sure the Altasense will be great but the Micron is bad the whole computer on a cable is bad...I can see that I need to really focus on the camera-as-one-unit design and get that made... O well I guess I learned somthing today atleast! good news is that the capture software is moving along at a good pace.. anyone want to poke at making a proggy that converts the RAW format I sent you guys into a tiff/jpeg/avi/quicktime/some new codec? that we can edit from? in maybe 10bit? David? Rob? BTW David does Combustion support your codec in 10bit? what about AfterEffects? how does color work in AfterEffects if your using the 10bit file and AfterEffects is 8bit OR 16bit but not 10?? I will now use this camera as a TEST camera only...when Altasense comes out I hope it's a "real" product ;)