4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Wayne Morellini · May 28th, 2004, 07:41 AM

Good idea, you could simply keep going with this to get as many mirrors as you want. The edge of the mirror would have to be machined smooth and tappered to the front to reduce distortion (but will it cause diffraction?? patterns). It would have to be sealed air tight, it would be bad to clean.

This gives me an idea. If you had a half mirored surface (no backing) then half the light would be reflected to the veiwfinder and half to the film plane, going one step further the mirrors could be coated to only reflect an individual range of primary colour, using two mirrors, who needs a $1-3K 3 chip prism splitter? I'm going to bring this up in the Home made camera thread.

Les Dit · May 28th, 2004, 12:32 PM

One issue that comes up with these designs is a tough one: thermal stability. It can be very hard to keep the pixel borders aligned under various thermal conditions and also vibrations. The human vision system is great at detecting one group of pixels moving in relation to another.

Obin Olson · May 28th, 2004, 04:42 PM

Update:

got the K3 16mm camera today...hmm a well made unit I must say...not like a plastic toy... very heavy like a russian tank ;)
anyway i see a big issue ...if I remove the shutter then I remove the ability to see the image in the viewfinder....any ideas for this problem anyone?

when the shutter is open you see nothing in the viewfinder when it is closed it has a mirror on it that shows you the image in the viewfinder

I guess I could try and use a 2 way mirror but then how many f-stops would I throw out??

what mirror or beamsplitter should I look at if any?

http://www.thorlabs.com/SelectGuide2...d=beamsplitter

maybe the amount of light coming in with a beam splitter would be ok because 3ccd cams have beamsplitters right? so should I look at 50/50 splitters or?

got the camera!!! WOW this camera link stuff is no easy click-to-record...very very lowlevel control of your camera with TONS of options! I will take a few days to get it all down I'm sure! Steve is sending me a 25mm lens so I can start testing this baby out I did put the 16mm lens infront of the cmos and it will work but I want to shoot some footage BEFORE I tear the camera apart with the 25mm lens that should come in a day or two...

Laurence Maher · June 2nd, 2004, 11:39 PM

Yo Obin

What HD camera was it that you ordered?

thanks

Rob Scott · June 3rd, 2004, 02:50 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher What HD camera was it that you ordered?
-->>>

It was the SI-1300 from http://www.siliconimaging.com

It has a resolution of 1280x1024 and can be programmed to generate 1280x720 at up to 60 fps.

Obin -- I'd be curious to see a few of the raw (and I mean *really* raw :-) files to see how they are formatted. Thanks!

Obin Olson · June 3rd, 2004, 03:35 PM

much excitment is buzzing around the studio as we have just captured our very first crude images from the camera by holding it up to a film lens by hand and shooting an image!! this is amazing, I will try and post an image later on...soon as I get a lens for this thing I will try and post some video for everyone to see....I can tell you that after we have worked in Combustion and photoshop on the images I can see that you name the look you want and this camera's raw files can give you that in post - somthing that is lacking as you know in DV, DVCAM, and dvcpro even dvcpro50 because this is RAW data!!!

ohh how the fun starts!!!!

I am not going to post images untill I get a proper lens..the images have alot of light leak from holding the thing by hand...but that will be soon!

I know that this is jumping ahead abit but does anyone know anything about C-mount lenses? what would it take to get a macro that would allow this unit to focus on the gg area of a mini35 type adaptor for the 35mm lens setup ? I want to modify the mini35 I just made for the dvx100 to work with this camera after I get the thing running and do some tests with a normal lens on it...help anyone?

Valeriu Campan · June 3rd, 2004, 11:07 PM

Obin,
A bit pricey:
http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...=2352&search=1

...A 35mm adaptor, though I would preffer lenses optimised for 2/3 or 16mm format:
http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...=1459&search=1

...or, Rodenstock macros:
http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...=1416&search=1

... and something cheaper, but I don't know about the macro performance:
http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...=2411&search=1

Recently an old Kilffit macro for Bolex 16mm sold in Australia for about 600.00.

Wayne Morellini · June 3rd, 2004, 11:59 PM

Go through the 35mm thread, I'm sure there was a link to Cmount adaptors there ;)

Black electrical tap might help keep the light out while you hld it by hand, how small is it?

Yipee, you right I'm going to enjoy seeign this.

thansk

Wayne.

Laurence Maher · June 4th, 2004, 03:48 AM

Thanks Rob. 1300. Got it.

Steve Nordhauser · June 4th, 2004, 06:57 AM

*hand held*? I almost choked on my morning muffin. OK, it will work to put something out, but the back focal distance needs to be about 0.001" correct, more for narrow FOV. and perpendicular to the sensor plane by the same.

Obin, your lenses are on the way. For people who are experimenting with some c mount cameras, get a c mount to 35mm manual lens adapter. You get a much narrower FOV (sensor is smaller than the film), but you get to use all that great glass sitting in your still camera bag.

I picked up a great collection of high quality c mount lenses on ebay. Expect to pay $10-30 for CCTV lenses (actually not bad for the larger pixel size of the Micron), $30-$80 for Bolex and Schneider fixed lenses and then some real money for some of the great 16mm lenses. Extension tubes, bellows are all out there cheap as people move to digital point and shoots.

Now, back to my regularly scheduled muffin.

Obin Olson · June 4th, 2004, 07:57 AM

I must clear this up, what I was talking about was NOT a 35mm adaptor but a c-mount lens that would focus macro about30-40mm away from the front on a groundglass from a 35mm rearprojection adaptor so that we can keep the FOV and the DOF of the 35mm lens....

Adrian White · June 4th, 2004, 11:04 AM

I came across yet another camera the other day.

SPECS: model IPC2M30HC
2 megapixel 8/10 bit HD camera
progressive scan 16:9
1920*1080 resolution
camera link interface
Programmable: resolution, framerate (will do 24p), electronic shuttter, long intergration, external trigger, pre exposure, strobe output, gain and offset!
(seems versatile!)
frame rate is programmable from 15-60 fps although it can only manage a max of 33fps at 1920*1080.

Uses a 1 inch progressive scan interline transfer ccd
can utilise C of F mount lenses

check it out at www.imperx.com

Please post you're opinions.

Obin Olson · June 4th, 2004, 12:53 PM

high dollar above $4,000

Adrian White · June 4th, 2004, 01:11 PM

Obin, how much did you pay for the SI-1300?

Dennis Jakobsen · June 4th, 2004, 01:13 PM

Yes I just recieved a pricelist, and the IPX2M30HC is 4,600$...

However that model could only be decreased in its horizontal resolution, and so the framerate would remain the same. But they recommended the IPX2M30C, since this version could.
But I guess they are too expensive...

Could you maybe post a screengrab of the software that comes with the CameraLink, obin? Just to see what options are available and how advanced it looks...

June 3rd, 2004, 03:35 PM	#81
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	the wait is almost over!! much excitment is buzzing around the studio as we have just captured our very first crude images from the camera by holding it up to a film lens by hand and shooting an image!! this is amazing, I will try and post an image later on...soon as I get a lens for this thing I will try and post some video for everyone to see....I can tell you that after we have worked in Combustion and photoshop on the images I can see that you name the look you want and this camera's raw files can give you that in post - somthing that is lacking as you know in DV, DVCAM, and dvcpro even dvcpro50 because this is RAW data!!! ohh how the fun starts!!!! I am not going to post images untill I get a proper lens..the images have alot of light leak from holding the thing by hand...but that will be soon! I know that this is jumping ahead abit but does anyone know anything about C-mount lenses? what would it take to get a macro that would allow this unit to focus on the gg area of a mini35 type adaptor for the 35mm lens setup ? I want to modify the mini35 I just made for the dvx100 to work with this camera after I get the thing running and do some tests with a normal lens on it...help anyone?

June 4th, 2004, 06:57 AM	#85
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	hand held? I almost choked on my morning muffin. OK, it will work to put something out, but the back focal distance needs to be about 0.001" correct, more for narrow FOV. and perpendicular to the sensor plane by the same. Obin, your lenses are on the way. For people who are experimenting with some c mount cameras, get a c mount to 35mm manual lens adapter. You get a much narrower FOV (sensor is smaller than the film), but you get to use all that great glass sitting in your still camera bag. I picked up a great collection of high quality c mount lenses on ebay. Expect to pay $10-30 for CCTV lenses (actually not bad for the larger pixel size of the Micron), $30-$80 for Bolex and Schneider fixed lenses and then some real money for some of the great 16mm lenses. Extension tubes, bellows are all out there cheap as people move to digital point and shoots. Now, back to my regularly scheduled muffin. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

June 4th, 2004, 11:04 AM	#87
Adrian White Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: leicester uk Posts: 26	new camera? I came across yet another camera the other day. SPECS: model IPC2M30HC 2 megapixel 8/10 bit HD camera progressive scan 16:9 19201080 resolution camera link interface Programmable: resolution, framerate (will do 24p), electronic shuttter, long intergration, external trigger, pre exposure, strobe output, gain and offset! (seems versatile!) frame rate is programmable from 15-60 fps although it can only manage a max of 33fps at 19201080. Uses a 1 inch progressive scan interline transfer ccd can utilise C of F mount lenses check it out at www.imperx.com Please post you're opinions. __________________ how far can we push these cameras?

June 4th, 2004, 01:11 PM	#89
Adrian White Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: leicester uk Posts: 26	new camera? Obin, how much did you pay for the SI-1300? __________________ how far can we push these cameras?

May 28th, 2004, 07:41 AM	#76
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Good idea, you could simply keep going with this to get as many mirrors as you want. The edge of the mirror would have to be machined smooth and tappered to the front to reduce distortion (but will it cause diffraction?? patterns). It would have to be sealed air tight, it would be bad to clean. This gives me an idea. If you had a half mirored surface (no backing) then half the light would be reflected to the veiwfinder and half to the film plane, going one step further the mirrors could be coated to only reflect an individual range of primary colour, using two mirrors, who needs a $1-3K 3 chip prism splitter? I'm going to bring this up in the Home made camera thread.

May 28th, 2004, 12:32 PM	#77
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	One issue that comes up with these designs is a tough one: thermal stability. It can be very hard to keep the pixel borders aligned under various thermal conditions and also vibrations. The human vision system is great at detecting one group of pixels moving in relation to another.

May 28th, 2004, 04:42 PM	#78
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Update: got the K3 16mm camera today...hmm a well made unit I must say...not like a plastic toy... very heavy like a russian tank ;) anyway i see a big issue ...if I remove the shutter then I remove the ability to see the image in the viewfinder....any ideas for this problem anyone? when the shutter is open you see nothing in the viewfinder when it is closed it has a mirror on it that shows you the image in the viewfinder I guess I could try and use a 2 way mirror but then how many f-stops would I throw out?? what mirror or beamsplitter should I look at if any? http://www.thorlabs.com/SelectGuide2...d=beamsplitter maybe the amount of light coming in with a beam splitter would be ok because 3ccd cams have beamsplitters right? so should I look at 50/50 splitters or? got the camera!!! WOW this camera link stuff is no easy click-to-record...very very lowlevel control of your camera with TONS of options! I will take a few days to get it all down I'm sure! Steve is sending me a 25mm lens so I can start testing this baby out I did put the 16mm lens infront of the cmos and it will work but I want to shoot some footage BEFORE I tear the camera apart with the 25mm lens that should come in a day or two...

June 2nd, 2004, 11:39 PM	#79
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Yo Obin What HD camera was it that you ordered? thanks

June 3rd, 2004, 02:50 PM	#80
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher What HD camera was it that you ordered? -->>> It was the SI-1300 from http://www.siliconimaging.com It has a resolution of 1280x1024 and can be programmed to generate 1280x720 at up to 60 fps. Obin -- I'd be curious to see a few of the raw (and I mean really raw :-) files to see how they are formatted. Thanks!

June 3rd, 2004, 11:07 PM	#82
Valeriu Campan Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 223	Obin, A bit pricey: http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...=2352&search=1 ...A 35mm adaptor, though I would preffer lenses optimised for 2/3 or 16mm format: http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...=1459&search=1 ...or, Rodenstock macros: http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...=1416&search=1 ... and something cheaper, but I don't know about the macro performance: http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...=2411&search=1 Recently an old Kilffit macro for Bolex 16mm sold in Australia for about 600.00.

June 3rd, 2004, 11:59 PM	#83
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Go through the 35mm thread, I'm sure there was a link to Cmount adaptors there ;) Black electrical tap might help keep the light out while you hld it by hand, how small is it? Yipee, you right I'm going to enjoy seeign this. thansk Wayne.

June 4th, 2004, 03:48 AM	#84
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Thanks Rob. 1300. Got it.

June 4th, 2004, 07:57 AM	#86
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I must clear this up, what I was talking about was NOT a 35mm adaptor but a c-mount lens that would focus macro about30-40mm away from the front on a groundglass from a 35mm rearprojection adaptor so that we can keep the FOV and the DOF of the 35mm lens....

June 4th, 2004, 12:53 PM	#88
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	high dollar above $4,000

June 4th, 2004, 01:13 PM	#90
Dennis Jakobsen New Boot Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 13	Yes I just recieved a pricelist, and the IPX2M30HC is 4,600$... However that model could only be decreased in its horizontal resolution, and so the framerate would remain the same. But they recommended the IPX2M30C, since this version could. But I guess they are too expensive... Could you maybe post a screengrab of the software that comes with the CameraLink, obin? Just to see what options are available and how advanced it looks...