4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Axel Mertes · May 7th, 2005, 04:10 AM

Hehe, I believe every single word here :)

Am I right that the ONLY goal must be to actually receive the data from the camera and save it to disk?

And potentially having some kind of live feed for viewfinder to a VGA display or the like?

All the rest would be possible in post production, like in regular film development as I see it, right?

Not that it is an easy task to perform...

Steve, was there never any need for a direct camera to disk recording device in the past, in the industrial use? Mmmh, as it seems probably not...

I was thinking of something like these USB / 1394 / card reader style media drives. Just one, that would do higher bit rates.

What is the highes data rate to store away that Obin has to expect from his choosen camera?

Axel

Rai Orz · May 7th, 2005, 04:28 AM

If you read this thread, you know that i do some things in this direction, because my goal is a cheap 12Bit (or more) direct recording for ultra high speed and/or ultra high pixels cameras without PC. With those unit you need only a PC (or whatever) for fiewfinder and setups, but not for recording. If you need infos contact me, we are on the way...

Steve Nordhauser · May 9th, 2005, 09:23 AM

Axel,
Basically true. Lossless recording with timecodes, viewfinder and camera control are all that is needed in real time. Everything else is post. 1920x1080@12bits packed * 60fps is 187MB/sec or 1.5Gb/sec. So, 30fps *might* go over Firewire 800 (don't know the real, continuous max) and will go over gigabit. Definitely a RAID, not a single drive.

Axel Mertes · May 9th, 2005, 10:30 AM

Hi Steve,

yes, the bandwidth to disk is always the problem. Applying a compression to Bayer pattern is one of the problems here, especially that at high frame rates nothing is fast enough to do the actual compression. We just made first shots on well over 500 frames/second and that blows you memory full, quickly... :)

On the RAID side it would not be a too big issue to store that 1080/30p/12bit away. You can do that with approx. 5 disks in RAID5 mode.

I guess the bigger problem is and will be the (small enough) PC subsystem for a while. Damn!

Axel

Rob LaPoint · May 10th, 2005, 05:09 AM

Do you have a new plan yet Obin?

Obin Olson · May 10th, 2005, 08:26 AM

Plan? ha! ya right!

well I will have a brand spanking new motherboard in 2 days..we will see if all our problems are the EPIX card or the motherboard!

Axel you can get 24p 1080 on 2 raid 0 drives it's only 75-95MB sec packed-unpacked

Régine Weinberg · May 10th, 2005, 02:51 PM

Well it has been posted in another treed by Steve Mingeon
but
http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT3888835064.html

not stupid at all

Steven Mingam · May 11th, 2005, 01:44 AM

well, that's definitly the way to go, i would say... even with a computer based camera, you have enough power (imho) to add even just a little compression to your stream before writing it to disk. A LZW-scheme (like lzo) sound good for the job (window-sliding compression).

(and please spell my name correctly next time ;)

Régine Weinberg · May 11th, 2005, 07:05 AM

Well I hope that's correct now, ...
I'm reading linuxdevices often and sometimes
sorry for that
with this thead I'm thinking a reinventing the wheel

so if there is a bulding block...
Thinking of 16mm or even 35mm
There was nothing on the cam as
speed !!
All the rest on the lens, and the lenses
have been better as any DV even HD today !!
and there was sync. nothing else
and what gret movies have been made
and still are made with

So a cam like this and only streaming.
Or even only a clip as 8-10 Minutes
to some "card would be great"

had some good french wine

but not french at all
have fun

Obin Olson · May 11th, 2005, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Biese

Well it has been posted in another treed by Steve Mingeon
but
http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT3888835064.html

not stupid at all

I have contacted this guy about working with FPGA to build the camera...I will know more soon

Obin Olson · May 13th, 2005, 11:21 AM

New board does not work. FIFO overflow all the time. same issue

looking at new ways of doing things now.

I guess this is why we don't have cheap camera systems on the market.

Jason Rodriguez · May 13th, 2005, 08:43 PM

Hey Obin,

Have you used the Coreco yet?

That board with it's SDK might make a big difference.

Rob LaPoint · May 13th, 2005, 11:34 PM

Hey Obin, I'm really sorry to hear that you are running into so many snags this late in the game. I wish there was something that us dvinfo-ers could do to help out, all I can think of is to give a couple words of encouragement and tell you to hang in there. You've come way to far to give up now!

Wayne Morellini · May 14th, 2005, 09:11 AM

Checking in:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obin Olson

I have contacted this guy about working with FPGA to build the camera...I will know more soon

I contacted him last year and he wanted to get involved with our projects (but never turned up) so he should be interested.

Worlds fastest 100GB notebook drive:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05...velstar_100gb/

Increased drive capacity early next year:
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23186

And Tomshardware recently had a article on building your own bare bones notebook. These systems have many options, including dual hard drive.

FIFO work around solutions will largerly be a programming timing solutions, and system configurations, as discussed previously. Look up those system performance configuration sites I posted previously.

Obin, when will it be finished, your congratulatory present is waiting here to be sent off ;) Anyway, back to designing my portable games system and OS (I only wish I could get around to it).

:checking out

Ben Simpson · May 15th, 2005, 08:55 PM

I hope that this is ok for me to post like this.

I just wanted to say that this is a really cool project and that I will really be looking forward to the end of it. I'm a 16 year old junior film and video student at a school called ARTech Charter School in MN and I will be really happy if something that is this good and this cheap comes through. We (my school and I) could have HD documentaries coming out the wazoo and maybe finally get noticed. Anyway I just wanted to say that this is really really cool and I hope I goes well for you and then consequently for everyone else.

May 7th, 2005, 04:28 AM	#2822
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	direct camera to disk recording device If you read this thread, you know that i do some things in this direction, because my goal is a cheap 12Bit (or more) direct recording for ultra high speed and/or ultra high pixels cameras without PC. With those unit you need only a PC (or whatever) for fiewfinder and setups, but not for recording. If you need infos contact me, we are on the way...

May 9th, 2005, 09:23 AM	#2823
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Axel, Basically true. Lossless recording with timecodes, viewfinder and camera control are all that is needed in real time. Everything else is post. 1920x1080@12bits packed * 60fps is 187MB/sec or 1.5Gb/sec. So, 30fps might go over Firewire 800 (don't know the real, continuous max) and will go over gigabit. Definitely a RAID, not a single drive. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

May 10th, 2005, 05:09 AM	#2825
Rob LaPoint Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pavilion, USA Posts: 64	Do you have a new plan yet Obin? __________________ Whatever works

May 10th, 2005, 02:51 PM	#2827
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	what about this Well it has been posted in another treed by Steve Mingeon but http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT3888835064.html not stupid at all

May 11th, 2005, 07:05 AM	#2829
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	Dear Steve Mingam Well I hope that's correct now, ... I'm reading linuxdevices often and sometimes sorry for that with this thead I'm thinking a reinventing the wheel so if there is a bulding block... Thinking of 16mm or even 35mm There was nothing on the cam as speed !! All the rest on the lens, and the lenses have been better as any DV even HD today !! and there was sync. nothing else and what gret movies have been made and still are made with So a cam like this and only streaming. Or even only a clip as 8-10 Minutes to some "card would be great" had some good french wine but not french at all have fun

May 7th, 2005, 04:10 AM	#2821
Axel Mertes Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Frankfurt / Germany Posts: 46	Hehe, I believe every single word here :) Am I right that the ONLY goal must be to actually receive the data from the camera and save it to disk? And potentially having some kind of live feed for viewfinder to a VGA display or the like? All the rest would be possible in post production, like in regular film development as I see it, right? Not that it is an easy task to perform... Steve, was there never any need for a direct camera to disk recording device in the past, in the industrial use? Mmmh, as it seems probably not... I was thinking of something like these USB / 1394 / card reader style media drives. Just one, that would do higher bit rates. What is the highes data rate to store away that Obin has to expect from his choosen camera? Axel

May 9th, 2005, 10:30 AM	#2824
Axel Mertes Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Frankfurt / Germany Posts: 46	Hi Steve, yes, the bandwidth to disk is always the problem. Applying a compression to Bayer pattern is one of the problems here, especially that at high frame rates nothing is fast enough to do the actual compression. We just made first shots on well over 500 frames/second and that blows you memory full, quickly... :) On the RAID side it would not be a too big issue to store that 1080/30p/12bit away. You can do that with approx. 5 disks in RAID5 mode. I guess the bigger problem is and will be the (small enough) PC subsystem for a while. Damn! Axel

May 10th, 2005, 08:26 AM	#2826
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Plan? ha! ya right! well I will have a brand spanking new motherboard in 2 days..we will see if all our problems are the EPIX card or the motherboard! Axel you can get 24p 1080 on 2 raid 0 drives it's only 75-95MB sec packed-unpacked

May 11th, 2005, 01:44 AM	#2828
Steven Mingam Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 91	well, that's definitly the way to go, i would say... even with a computer based camera, you have enough power (imho) to add even just a little compression to your stream before writing it to disk. A LZW-scheme (like lzo) sound good for the job (window-sliding compression). (and please spell my name correctly next time ;)

May 13th, 2005, 11:21 AM	#2831
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	New board does not work. FIFO overflow all the time. same issue looking at new ways of doing things now. I guess this is why we don't have cheap camera systems on the market.

May 13th, 2005, 08:43 PM	#2832
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Hey Obin, Have you used the Coreco yet? That board with it's SDK might make a big difference.

May 13th, 2005, 11:34 PM	#2833
Rob LaPoint Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pavilion, USA Posts: 64	Hey Obin, I'm really sorry to hear that you are running into so many snags this late in the game. I wish there was something that us dvinfo-ers could do to help out, all I can think of is to give a couple words of encouragement and tell you to hang in there. You've come way to far to give up now! __________________ Whatever works

May 15th, 2005, 08:55 PM	#2835
Ben Simpson New Boot Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Northfield MN Posts: 20	I hope that this is ok for me to post like this. I just wanted to say that this is a really cool project and that I will really be looking forward to the end of it. I'm a 16 year old junior film and video student at a school called ARTech Charter School in MN and I will be really happy if something that is this good and this cheap comes through. We (my school and I) could have HD documentaries coming out the wazoo and maybe finally get noticed. Anyway I just wanted to say that this is really really cool and I hope I goes well for you and then consequently for everyone else. __________________ later, Simpson