4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

[Kyle Granger]

Obin,
> how you display?
I am drawing two polygons.
> what size?
The window is resizable. But the raster within the texture is 960x540.
> what framerate?
same as capture rate (although it is possible to "skip" display frames)
> have you captured frames and displayed video at the same time?
Capture and display are in different threads, if that is what you mean. There may be one frame latency, but there is no drift. Same CPU usage as quoted above.

[Wayne Morellini]

Kyle:
>> how you display?
>I am drawing two polygons.

That brought a good laugh on. I wonder if the clipping of the polygon through the layers is what is causing the slow down.


Is the Polygon mehord the fastest in the industry for 2D display, or is it fastest because of he GPU shadder ussage?

[Kyle Granger]

Wayne,

> That brought a good laugh on.

you must explain. :)

> I wonder if the clipping ...is what is causing the slow down.

Yeah, extra drawing plus the window clipping (slow down with Task Manager overlap), probably.

> Is the Polygon mehord the fastest

It's fast for me. What would you recommend?

> is it fastest because of he GPU shadder ussage?

do you mean pixel shaders?

[Wayne Morellini]

>> That brought a good laugh on.
>you must explain. :)

Ohh, just that it is innovative, slick etc and I know it's possible (back in the old days one of the consumer 3D chipset manufacturers did a 3D demo that had video panels mapped on a spinning shape). Around here we don't have many classy programmers of this level.

>Yeah, extra drawing plus the window clipping (slow down with Task Manager overlap), probably.

Is there any alternative, buffering/windowing technique (hardware windowing) that will get rid of this (MS changed techniques many times).

>> Is the Polygon method the fastest
> It's fast for me. What would you recommend?

I don't know, that's why I was asking you to learn. I know of these things, and where to look for information, but because I am not doing them myself, I don't know the details.

>> is it fastest because of he GPU shader usage?
> do you mean pixel shaders?

Yes


Thanks

Wayne.

[Kyle Granger]

Hey Wayne,

> 3D demo that had video panels mapped on a spinning shape).

Heh, heh, I'm not doing anything like that. But one could do that, virtually for free, with any of these cameras. The only real, completely unavoidable work is processing the raw data from the frame grabber, and sending the raster to the GPU. If you don't have to touch the data, so much the better. The number of lines of OpenGL code I use is laughably small compared to what I've used for DirectX. But drawing a bitmap is not rocket science.

You could also use glCopyPixels(), but I just understand texture filtering with polys better. Plus, as you said, you get pixel shaders. They are way cool.

> Is there any alternative, buffering/windowing technique (hardware windowing) that will get rid of this (MS changed techniques many times).

Don't know. For me it's DDI: just Don't Do It, i.e., don't have an overlapping window on your video, if you don't want to cause excessive draws.

[Wayne Morellini]

For embedded interface, it really is no problem, as long as you can restrict error messages from overlapping it. Mouse pointer doesn't effect it? I have often thought of overlaying transparent information on the window, and you have to do that with Zebra patterns, is this a worry on your technique?

>The only real, completely unavoidable work is processing the raw data from the frame grabber, and sending the raster to the GPU.

I have noticed there is upto an 266MB's back-channel capability with AGP, and have often advocated sending the RAW footage to the shaders to be processed for preview/debayering, as well as processed for storage (packing and compression etc) and sent out again to storage. How possible does this seem from where you stand?

I posted several GPU development API's (3-4) in the past in the technical thread as well.

Wayne.

[Valeriu Campan]

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : edit:

2.) Additional with build in double removable HDD disk frame to record direct full 12Bit RAW data up to 30fps on 2 x 2.5" HDDs. (In this case Firewire is only for prewiev and setup)

-->>>

Rai,

That sounds interesting.
Could you be more specific?

[Rai Orz]

@Valeriu,
Our camera head manufactor work on a future camera head designs, with internal high speed FPGA and MC, also it will be possible to change the sensor plate and adapt new or different sensors in a few days without other hardware changes. All tests work well, but the most problems are not with sensors, but with high speed data record (PC interfaces and others). So, together, we went a different way and add HDD controllers to the MC to write RAW data direct to disk (1 to max 4). At this way, a interface, like firewire or usb is only need for setup, controlling or preview, not for record, so you need no big pc. Maybe just a handheld? Max. Bit deph and frame rate are just a HDD question. The Hardware will record 8, 10 or 12Bit (packed, but uncompressed). At the moment we use HDDs with max 39MB/Sec. cont. write (so 2xHDD=78MB/Sec, 4xHDD=156MB/Sec).
It will be possible to change the sensor(plate) not only for new sensor versions, also for other sensors (CCD for Video look or CMOS for film style....). The camera case dim. can be somewhere about 70x70x100mm incl 2 x 2.5" HDDs, maybe 4.

The system in not ready to sell, and i don´t like to talk over it before, but it is at a point we can say it is possible in the very near future, so now i like to know what is on YOUR wish list and how much would you like to pay for this or that...

[Ray Boykin]

Is Ben still on this forum?

[Leon Nox]

first of all hi everybody , i would like to know if anybody tried to build something like this:

a cmos sensor ( maybe inside an old 16 mm russian camera) recording at HD 1920*1080 @24/25 fps 10bit recording on a notebook through firewire in raw image format ( i would like to apply LUT after )

ever tried?

please let me know and have a good job

PS do you know where can i find HD cmos? Where to find raw example images?

[Rob LaPoint]

I know this is no new ground as far as monitors for these cameras go, but they are fairly inexpensive, hope it helps somebody out.

http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=31010

[Jason Rodriguez]

Interesting Rob.

They have a very nice 8" Touchscreen.

Obin, you might want to check it out, seems much more advanced than what you (may) have (not sure since you didn't list any models).

[Wayne Morellini]

Leon, I don't believe nobody has answered this for you, but everything that you listed (except Firewire and 1080 (though that might be in now)) is Obin's original project of this thread, listed at the beginning, with sample HD footage ;)

We talk about many HDCMOS in this thread. Most commonly Fill factory Ibis5 from Drake and Sumix, Altasens from Silicon Imagining and Sumix, and Micron from Silicon Imaging.

Run down, Altasens is vgood, Micron 3 megapixel 1080p part good, newest versions of Ibis5 good, older version of Ibis5 and Micron 1.3 Mp not so good.

Problem is, that many camera makers produce very different quality in cameras, and most are not supported by pro camera capture aps, like we do here.

You need professional cinema capture software to shoot. For now many groups work on. Obin's SI, Drake's are closets on this list. Sumix and Rob Scott's coming. Other groups, not mentioned here ?? Should take two weeks to write capture for very fast, very component, videocamera programmer (6 months for everybody else). Tell you the truth there are some people who could probably do it is two days, after catching up on all research, but they are probably virtually one in a million). I used to lecture at university on programming, there is something like a 1000:1 difference between best and worse programmers. (Sorry, couldn't resist dropping a few jaws with that one ;)

<<<-- Originally posted by Leon Nox : first of all hi everybody , i would like to know if anybody tried to build something like this:

a cmos sensor ( maybe inside an old 16 mm russian camera) recording at HD 1920*1080 @24/25 fps 10bit recording on a notebook through firewire in raw image format ( i would like to apply LUT after )

ever tried?

please let me know and have a good job

PS do you know where can i find HD cmos? Where to find raw example images? -->>>

[Wayne Morellini]

Rai,

In the end the industry will eventually go to 24-bit capture (there is already some special high bit mode on Altasens or Foveon, I can't remember which) to record the full range of light. But for the moment as the interfaces record 16-bit, and 16 bit camera simular to film, you should build handling support into the FPGA for future 13-16 bit modes.

At the moment I am, and long term people are very worn out by the long process, to think about things. I suggest looking through the first 4 months of posts, in the threads, and list all the all the suggestions made, and ask people which they like?

My wish list on price stands, I prefer $1000 camera and sell truckloads to TV stations and wall-mart etc. If you are interested contact me. I have been thinking of a platform for this price range, could be sold for $200AU, but people will still pay $1000AU ($800 profit). I originally was going to do another "easy" "simple" platform because too much hassle doing custom hardware, but have been let down by potential partner. But if you are already doing custom hardware instead, maybe we can bypass simple idea, for really cheap idea.

Something you may notice from performance of capture apps, is that we could even look at slow VIA processor on 12*8cm PC motherboard, real cost less than $100. With dual processor (2GHZ (AT LEAST) =2W) we start to look at editor in camera, just plug into USB2.0 USB hub (with keyboard, external drives, peripherals) etc and monitor. So, NOBODY, in the video industry can touch this, add pro lens, or DIY 35mm adaptor and old lens. As I have discussed with you and Rob many times in the past. But it is all upto what you want to do.

One thing I must note, is prosumer/video production/documentary market. Forget indie only market for cheap camera, you could see 100 times more to these other markets. Many want to be prosumer people are forced into buying $1000-, rubbish cameras, instead of $3000 rubbish camera, we can out do all, just RAW makes the difference. But for this all controls must be simple as well as manual, instant auto snap set, full auto, and follow. I can show many ways to do things, if involved. I don't often talk because it is related to other potential IP of mine. Forget all follow like old film camera, no view screen, estimate and calculate image in head rubbish, there is a reason many people can not do this and pro cameras use view finders and more convenient controls.

Now on the back-end, you have to output/record common high quality tape standards as well ;) . You go straight into the situation and say, "I have story for news in half an hour", and not say: "I need 6 hours to load in, de-bayer, colour balance, edit etc and then give it to you in a file that you can't feed into your system"). In all prosumer, low end production and doco, speed and auto is the need. Good news is that you can have cinema and quick on the same camera (as discussed before) change the rail setup, and change the control setup. We know all this already, but it needs to be done. We do not replace cameras like Drake/Altasens, just complement them for those that can't afford a Drake or Altasens (the majority of potential prosumers).


Thanks

Wayne.

[Wayne Morellini]

Rob,

Impressive, how come none of these guys sell a 1280*1024 monitor, or 720*576, cheap (rhetorical question)?

How do people feel about using 640*480 screen, we can't get individual pixels on 1024*768 anyway, so 640*480 should show us the general lighting/color levels?


Thanks

Wayne.