4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Régine Weinberg · November 15th, 2004, 04:05 PM

It's there

Pentium M Processor with Intel E7501 Chipset and Gigabit (10/100/1000) & Four 10/100 LAN; SafeXcel 184x Co-Processor; CompactFlash Socket; Up to 8 GB DDR RAM

http://www.win-ent.com/IP-06049.htm

its a board that goes in GIGE routers

have fun

Obin Olson · November 15th, 2004, 04:59 PM

Ben keep it tuned to this channel I will be broadcasting news updates very soon..don't go ..yet...

Wayne Morellini · November 15th, 2004, 11:28 PM

Jason, you miss the piont, I did not say they were a very competitive recording format as far as competition goes (though if Jaun puts RAW filmstream on it that's another matter) but I am talking about for price and chip level performance (admittedly not in resolution). Also, that is what many videographers and a number of Indies will consider instead of us just for the convience and name brand. Besides I think they are probably going to sell these by the truckloads again, just like they did with the pro version of he vx1000. So if we can beat them on these things as well we beat "Everybody" by the truck load, otherwise we are just stuck with a few thousand indies, maybe tens of thousands. Just food for thought. So if we just look at optical performance/quality of images pulled we can agree. Besides don't get distracted by that, I imagine the thing about the dual slope, dual gamma curve is more up your alley, and much more practical. Better to concentrate on practical aspects, and leave the rest as comment.

Ben, the thread is not a farce, we have even got two camera systems here close to market. Though if people took it more seriously, like engineers, you could consider it so.

Ronald, your a legend, most here complains but won't put in the effort to see the forest. But still I think it has 10*GigE ports rather than 10-GigE port.

Drake, when are you releasing your camera?

Régine Weinberg · November 16th, 2004, 01:51 AM

Dear Wayne

fine a bit of history, 6 yaers ago with some friends of Hawaii and US and well known research labs in the mainland we finally patented after 10 years work our new way to make a lowcost high output photovoltaic cell. We got no money in,.....much fame !!

Shell took the plunge , went into mass production, our layout was for small production units just were the need is, third world and so. World bank told us... NO,, there are Shell and others.!! Finally Shell and others pumped millions in to convert our process to mass production, anyway, the cells are now cheaper but not more efficient.

We still need some 5 Millions to start the first small production units can be transported anywhere with two 40 foot containers.
But even in Africa they do love Shell !! They have to !!.

This was the history of long discussions with he big ones. The will be fascinated, take the idea, and will produce scrap from it as there are politics. Go in NOW hear this. I did ask what DAW to take for live recording. The only answer was YOU can take any. No way, to record more than 8 traks there is maybe Nuendo, first written to run on SGI Octane, As Octane was only 20 bit Audio and not 24 bits ...who will hear this ??

It was never released on SGI. Windows has a latency problem, there is no Kenel you can patch like in Linux. The Windows multimeda Fantasy is scrap, not to use for serious work. Big mixing desks rulez that is politics, Big cameras rulez that is professional.

Stay with 10.000 Indies like Kinetta will do, or Aaton does with his famous S16 why not, going masss production. Take this Maya on my 5 year old bi pro octane with the MXE bords still roks, no Nvidia can do !!

Wayne Morellini · November 16th, 2004, 04:32 AM

Hi

Having hard time to follow, but:

Solar interesting, several years ago Japanese company (big like Canon) announce way to make thin flexible plastic Solar panel cheap as chips (like normal plastic role). They predicted that the process could go to 60% efficeincy, and was around 30% to start, I think then, but where is it, dissapeared. Since then two other high efficency cheap technologies announced, highest around 70% efficency (beats claurifil??) but still where are they? I say if Shell wants to take over and give you money let them, because small company soon swamped by cheap 30-70% technologies. Also we have 20 foot solar containers made here in Australia, supplying outback homes with solar power, maybe they would be good to partner with for production. These Oil companies not to bright, they want to continue to pump every last drop of oil out of he ground, but what then, price goes up, solar patents reach life and everybody else manuafctures and takes market, then oil suddenly runs out and oil companies start going broke ?? Instead, even with Solar power there is a need for oil in modern society, as oil is running out they should stretch out profits from oil reserves, by making money on alternative energy before petents run out, and selling oil at high price for longer. When oil runs out they still sell alterntive energy ;) . But people aren't bright, they see many trees to knock down but not the forest.

Anyway back to cameras. Politics I hear you, I know the stories. But even here "early" politics dictate cumbersome hard to use cameras, and workflows :( for cinema users only. I say it does not cost much to make cameras and workflow as freindly as HDV Sony, then nobody needs to buy HDV Sony, you switch your camera to from Cinema mode to ENG mode and dump 50Mb's+ ENG standard codec video file straight to broadcaster, don't even need to save to tape. Little extra care in designing system makes camera twice as good and easy, and ten times more popular, then much cheaper. But forget live compression for the moment and tape, can all be done after editing/filming anyway, what we need is good user interface (one mode for Cinema, one for ENG, one for Doco) and good results (like dual slope dual gamma curve idea), now most people are very happy. Without numbers system will allways be expensive because of high fixed and variable costs.

I'm a bit confused on the multi-track recording, but Windows has many realtime problems, and third party developers sell realtime OS core replacements for Windows. MS upgraded the Windows core many times, now they use realtime Tron Operating System (Japanese official Realtiem OS) task switching in ".net" to solve problems (where ever actually solved I do not know). With careful OS/System configuration 8 track should now be possible, I give Rob links to configuration sites. But using "any door" applies to being able to use the equipment you personally want top use, as good as you want.

Maybe Windows will overcome Multimedia fantasy, but probably with many times more computer power than realtime OS needs.

The secret is to have it simple and flexible enough to suite anybodies budget, taste and work environment. Then no arguments, everybody is happy, they just configure it to suite their politics.

Régine Weinberg · November 16th, 2004, 06:04 AM

Dear Wayne
Voila you got it. my three times warp brain dump *2twbd* Linux with kernel 2.6.7 can do hibernation the swap memory is saved to disk and you can patch it to low latency and preemtive as well....so for sound it can go more than 8 traks and for video.....

Take a single board computer in the form factor of a nvidea graphics card, there is a Gige port, a Xeon and hardware Intel Sata raid support that will do one altasens as the pci bus connector is only the power supply. three Altasens we take three, on each a Linux application is running witing the data data to disk so we have no PCI bus Problem for the data, our Cam would have trhee Gige out no need for cameralink or HDSDI if we have 4 Altasens we woud have 4 CPU board and alltogeher 16 dik same number as Kinetta

Wayne Morellini · November 16th, 2004, 06:45 AM

Yes, that is right, you can up the board and the number of cameras. I often only consider a one camera job, but something like the movie "Bamboozoled" (you need to see that one, for how good MiniDV really is) he used upto 13 cameras etc. This is very good, but boy the storage requirments ;) . But I am not going to get into a Linux only debate here (the Mac people waiting for theirs will lynch me, not to mention the Windows people) let them do what they want in the end one OS computer system will be defficent and one will be the best. But the question begs us, if we are just using the camera for capture software, then why not go for Linux instead of Embbeded XP (thats provided we get drivers for GigE which must be somewhere for Linux servers). I don't raise this issue because I want to switch the camera over to field editing functions, wordprocessor etc when not shooting, and heroinwarrior never wrote back to me.

You know another good system is the BEOS technology used as the basis of the new Palm OS6. Imagine if we had ports to raw data through that ? Actually think about it, we should be able to do SD RAW, veiwfinder with .camera on the back, use a electronic lense and some finger controls and you got it. I am not advocating that here, but nice thought food.

Régine Weinberg · November 16th, 2004, 07:52 AM

Indeed sounds cool Wayne. wel no OS battlefield no religion hm I'm just downloading and try to compile, may take some time
an LINUX NAS tool, what it does, well exact the same as the embedded XP in the Lacie Ethnernet disk The lacie has Gige E and is huge

The lInux tool will support up to two GIG E and an array of SATA or what you like and gratuit..GNU Well it needs some tweaking but if I get it up running it takes from any camera with an ip adress like Steve what comes from what ever it is, data for, no gin tonic or so.

Jason Rodriguez · November 16th, 2004, 08:41 AM

I like Linux, but what's wrong with Windows?

Stuff is working on windows BTW. Look at Pleora's system, it'll do DMA and only use 1% of the CPU by bypassing the windows stack. Once it's in memory, write it to disk.

Linux is much more efficient and customizable, but if it works on Windows also, then I don't see the reason for slamming it-the thing is if the camera works, it works-and if it doesn't, it doesn't. Frankly I don't care what OS the camera is running as long as it works, and it works well (and in order to work well, it's gotta play friendly with every OS, including my Mac ;).

Régine Weinberg · November 16th, 2004, 10:52 AM

Nothing. within the camera a preemptive low latency linux damm small no gui nothing...take the disks out and put them in your Post computer with your Windows, Apple OSx * UNIX Haha*, Linux, Mosix, BSD, Irix, Solaris, Beos, or what else you are happy with.

That are two totally different issues.

In Windows I have to bypass and so on on Linux even I do have a GUI and there is no royalty nothing we call it GNU application.
Even I do have to pay for my Linux. Even I can compile it or take the cernel I like, with only what I need. Do this with windows thats the reason, Keep it cheap means within the cam what's in set-top boxes and even cell phones not allway Windows, for the user no differenz at all.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · November 16th, 2004, 12:04 PM

Also remember that under Linux you can write to : Ext2, NFS, NTFS (if you don't have prior info writen from windows there is no problem), HFS, HFS+.
That is what I call portability!

Obin Olson · November 16th, 2004, 02:29 PM

got a micro atx board on order today and had my car totaled in an crash. I was driving. I am lucky not to be in bad shape right now. my Audi Quattro is a pile of metal now. Maybe I can melt the metal down and make 300 HD 10bit 4:4:4 camera systems.

today is a bad day.

Eric Gorski · November 16th, 2004, 04:05 PM

damn obin, glad you're ok.. without you, the camera project if screwed :)

look at the bright side, it could of been worse:
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/carexplode.wmv

:) how about with the insurance money you buy an old toyota for $5000 and put the rest toward research and development for the camera rig.

Eric Gorski · November 16th, 2004, 09:43 PM

so.. since Rai & Markus' "Drake" HD camera is MIA.. or KIA.. does anyone know, or can anyone guess what camera and capture system they were using?

Jason Rodriguez · November 16th, 2004, 10:26 PM

Obin, glad to see you're safe-that's the most important thing.

BTW, Juan, AFAIK, Linux still doesn't support HFS+ (or it's very buggy developmental support), only HFS.

November 16th, 2004, 04:32 AM	#2180
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	This maybe a bit technical for most people, just skip to end: Hi Having hard time to follow, but: Solar interesting, several years ago Japanese company (big like Canon) announce way to make thin flexible plastic Solar panel cheap as chips (like normal plastic role). They predicted that the process could go to 60% efficeincy, and was around 30% to start, I think then, but where is it, dissapeared. Since then two other high efficency cheap technologies announced, highest around 70% efficency (beats claurifil??) but still where are they? I say if Shell wants to take over and give you money let them, because small company soon swamped by cheap 30-70% technologies. Also we have 20 foot solar containers made here in Australia, supplying outback homes with solar power, maybe they would be good to partner with for production. These Oil companies not to bright, they want to continue to pump every last drop of oil out of he ground, but what then, price goes up, solar patents reach life and everybody else manuafctures and takes market, then oil suddenly runs out and oil companies start going broke ?? Instead, even with Solar power there is a need for oil in modern society, as oil is running out they should stretch out profits from oil reserves, by making money on alternative energy before petents run out, and selling oil at high price for longer. When oil runs out they still sell alterntive energy ;) . But people aren't bright, they see many trees to knock down but not the forest. Anyway back to cameras. Politics I hear you, I know the stories. But even here "early" politics dictate cumbersome hard to use cameras, and workflows :( for cinema users only. I say it does not cost much to make cameras and workflow as freindly as HDV Sony, then nobody needs to buy HDV Sony, you switch your camera to from Cinema mode to ENG mode and dump 50Mb's+ ENG standard codec video file straight to broadcaster, don't even need to save to tape. Little extra care in designing system makes camera twice as good and easy, and ten times more popular, then much cheaper. But forget live compression for the moment and tape, can all be done after editing/filming anyway, what we need is good user interface (one mode for Cinema, one for ENG, one for Doco) and good results (like dual slope dual gamma curve idea), now most people are very happy. Without numbers system will allways be expensive because of high fixed and variable costs. I'm a bit confused on the multi-track recording, but Windows has many realtime problems, and third party developers sell realtime OS core replacements for Windows. MS upgraded the Windows core many times, now they use realtime Tron Operating System (Japanese official Realtiem OS) task switching in ".net" to solve problems (where ever actually solved I do not know). With careful OS/System configuration 8 track should now be possible, I give Rob links to configuration sites. But using "any door" applies to being able to use the equipment you personally want top use, as good as you want. Maybe Windows will overcome Multimedia fantasy, but probably with many times more computer power than realtime OS needs. The secret is to have it simple and flexible enough to suite anybodies budget, taste and work environment. Then no arguments, everybody is happy, they just configure it to suite their politics.

November 15th, 2004, 04:05 PM	#2176
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	It's there Pentium M Processor with Intel E7501 Chipset and Gigabit (10/100/1000) & Four 10/100 LAN; SafeXcel 184x Co-Processor; CompactFlash Socket; Up to 8 GB DDR RAM http://www.win-ent.com/IP-06049.htm its a board that goes in GIGE routers have fun

November 15th, 2004, 04:59 PM	#2177
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Ben keep it tuned to this channel I will be broadcasting news updates very soon..don't go ..yet...

November 15th, 2004, 11:28 PM	#2178
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Jason, you miss the piont, I did not say they were a very competitive recording format as far as competition goes (though if Jaun puts RAW filmstream on it that's another matter) but I am talking about for price and chip level performance (admittedly not in resolution). Also, that is what many videographers and a number of Indies will consider instead of us just for the convience and name brand. Besides I think they are probably going to sell these by the truckloads again, just like they did with the pro version of he vx1000. So if we can beat them on these things as well we beat "Everybody" by the truck load, otherwise we are just stuck with a few thousand indies, maybe tens of thousands. Just food for thought. So if we just look at optical performance/quality of images pulled we can agree. Besides don't get distracted by that, I imagine the thing about the dual slope, dual gamma curve is more up your alley, and much more practical. Better to concentrate on practical aspects, and leave the rest as comment. Ben, the thread is not a farce, we have even got two camera systems here close to market. Though if people took it more seriously, like engineers, you could consider it so. Ronald, your a legend, most here complains but won't put in the effort to see the forest. But still I think it has 10*GigE ports rather than 10-GigE port. Drake, when are you releasing your camera?

November 16th, 2004, 01:51 AM	#2179
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	Dear Wayne fine a bit of history, 6 yaers ago with some friends of Hawaii and US and well known research labs in the mainland we finally patented after 10 years work our new way to make a lowcost high output photovoltaic cell. We got no money in,.....much fame !! Shell took the plunge , went into mass production, our layout was for small production units just were the need is, third world and so. World bank told us... NO,, there are Shell and others.!! Finally Shell and others pumped millions in to convert our process to mass production, anyway, the cells are now cheaper but not more efficient. We still need some 5 Millions to start the first small production units can be transported anywhere with two 40 foot containers. But even in Africa they do love Shell !! They have to !!. This was the history of long discussions with he big ones. The will be fascinated, take the idea, and will produce scrap from it as there are politics. Go in NOW hear this. I did ask what DAW to take for live recording. The only answer was YOU can take any. No way, to record more than 8 traks there is maybe Nuendo, first written to run on SGI Octane, As Octane was only 20 bit Audio and not 24 bits ...who will hear this ?? It was never released on SGI. Windows has a latency problem, there is no Kenel you can patch like in Linux. The Windows multimeda Fantasy is scrap, not to use for serious work. Big mixing desks rulez that is politics, Big cameras rulez that is professional. Stay with 10.000 Indies like Kinetta will do, or Aaton does with his famous S16 why not, going masss production. Take this Maya on my 5 year old bi pro octane with the MXE bords still roks, no Nvidia can do !!

November 16th, 2004, 06:04 AM	#2181
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	Dear Wayne Voila you got it. my three times warp brain dump 2twbd Linux with kernel 2.6.7 can do hibernation the swap memory is saved to disk and you can patch it to low latency and preemtive as well....so for sound it can go more than 8 traks and for video..... Take a single board computer in the form factor of a nvidea graphics card, there is a Gige port, a Xeon and hardware Intel Sata raid support that will do one altasens as the pci bus connector is only the power supply. three Altasens we take three, on each a Linux application is running witing the data data to disk so we have no PCI bus Problem for the data, our Cam would have trhee Gige out no need for cameralink or HDSDI if we have 4 Altasens we woud have 4 CPU board and alltogeher 16 dik same number as Kinetta

November 16th, 2004, 06:45 AM	#2182
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yes, that is right, you can up the board and the number of cameras. I often only consider a one camera job, but something like the movie "Bamboozoled" (you need to see that one, for how good MiniDV really is) he used upto 13 cameras etc. This is very good, but boy the storage requirments ;) . But I am not going to get into a Linux only debate here (the Mac people waiting for theirs will lynch me, not to mention the Windows people) let them do what they want in the end one OS computer system will be defficent and one will be the best. But the question begs us, if we are just using the camera for capture software, then why not go for Linux instead of Embbeded XP (thats provided we get drivers for GigE which must be somewhere for Linux servers). I don't raise this issue because I want to switch the camera over to field editing functions, wordprocessor etc when not shooting, and heroinwarrior never wrote back to me. You know another good system is the BEOS technology used as the basis of the new Palm OS6. Imagine if we had ports to raw data through that ? Actually think about it, we should be able to do SD RAW, veiwfinder with .camera on the back, use a electronic lense and some finger controls and you got it. I am not advocating that here, but nice thought food.

November 16th, 2004, 07:52 AM	#2183
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	Indeed sounds cool Wayne. wel no OS battlefield no religion hm I'm just downloading and try to compile, may take some time an LINUX NAS tool, what it does, well exact the same as the embedded XP in the Lacie Ethnernet disk The lacie has Gige E and is huge The lInux tool will support up to two GIG E and an array of SATA or what you like and gratuit..GNU Well it needs some tweaking but if I get it up running it takes from any camera with an ip adress like Steve what comes from what ever it is, data for, no gin tonic or so.

November 16th, 2004, 08:41 AM	#2184
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	I like Linux, but what's wrong with Windows? Stuff is working on windows BTW. Look at Pleora's system, it'll do DMA and only use 1% of the CPU by bypassing the windows stack. Once it's in memory, write it to disk. Linux is much more efficient and customizable, but if it works on Windows also, then I don't see the reason for slamming it-the thing is if the camera works, it works-and if it doesn't, it doesn't. Frankly I don't care what OS the camera is running as long as it works, and it works well (and in order to work well, it's gotta play friendly with every OS, including my Mac ;).

November 16th, 2004, 10:52 AM	#2185
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	Nothing. within the camera a preemptive low latency linux damm small no gui nothing...take the disks out and put them in your Post computer with your Windows, Apple OSx * UNIX Haha*, Linux, Mosix, BSD, Irix, Solaris, Beos, or what else you are happy with. That are two totally different issues. In Windows I have to bypass and so on on Linux even I do have a GUI and there is no royalty nothing we call it GNU application. Even I do have to pay for my Linux. Even I can compile it or take the cernel I like, with only what I need. Do this with windows thats the reason, Keep it cheap means within the cam what's in set-top boxes and even cell phones not allway Windows, for the user no differenz at all.

November 16th, 2004, 12:04 PM	#2186
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Also remember that under Linux you can write to : Ext2, NFS, NTFS (if you don't have prior info writen from windows there is no problem), HFS, HFS+. That is what I call portability!

November 16th, 2004, 02:29 PM	#2187
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	got a micro atx board on order today and had my car totaled in an crash. I was driving. I am lucky not to be in bad shape right now. my Audi Quattro is a pile of metal now. Maybe I can melt the metal down and make 300 HD 10bit 4:4:4 camera systems. today is a bad day.

November 16th, 2004, 04:05 PM	#2188
Eric Gorski Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Western Oregon Posts: 138	damn obin, glad you're ok.. without you, the camera project if screwed :) look at the bright side, it could of been worse: http://media.ebaumsworld.com/carexplode.wmv :) how about with the insurance money you buy an old toyota for $5000 and put the rest toward research and development for the camera rig.

November 16th, 2004, 09:43 PM	#2189
Eric Gorski Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Western Oregon Posts: 138	so.. since Rai & Markus' "Drake" HD camera is MIA.. or KIA.. does anyone know, or can anyone guess what camera and capture system they were using?

November 16th, 2004, 10:26 PM	#2190
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Obin, glad to see you're safe-that's the most important thing. BTW, Juan, AFAIK, Linux still doesn't support HFS+ (or it's very buggy developmental support), only HFS.