4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

[Barend Onneweer]

Ronald! Snap out of it!
Please don't put every single word on a new line. Stay away from the return key!

(MODERATOR NOTE: Ronalds posts where edited for better
readability, so Barend's comments above no longer apply)

Apart from that - I'm trying to make sense out of your posts... Lining up the chips on the prism so you can use 4 chips to make one picture is a pretty tough job. If you plan on resizing and perspective correcting the different outputs from the 3 chips to line up you'll lose resolution right there - by resampling the image. Sounds like a lot of hassle for a limited gain.

In theory it could be done, but to be honest, if I see what people can push out of an IBIS chip, i feel a single Altasense would return great pictures with a lot less hassle. To make these DIY camera's work, they need to be technically straightforward. Preferrably without groundglasses or prisms. A prism for the viewfinder would be an idea, although a videou output on the camera would be great also.

Bar3nd

[Régine Weinberg]

Hm first if you don't like my writing ok I'm cameraman, graphics
artist and realtime nerd. I do like to write in short lines Times does
it it's easy to read on any monitor.

I've not talked of any prism at all Mirros thats easy, cheap and ??
nothing has to be done in the camara. only pump it on a disk array
with 35mm nothing was done in the camera that was ok

Why to have a replay.

As I told you Film is not lunatic a Van Motorhome is never far away.
There a batch procedure is run stiching the pichtures and so on
15 minutes or 8 that's ok keep the camera simple that's film

Light is coming trough the lens an optical Viewfinder will show all
you can put any lens on Kreins thinks a bit so going on Ibis5A
the factory was sold october going on Altasens ok but next year
the chip will change and so every year

well the pictures it does are pritty good did not thought it's only
an Ibis5a Altasens thread

maybe posted a zillion times who knows about:
http://www.panavisionsvi.com/imagers_Quad.htm

from the page
The sensor integrates all timing and signal buffering on chip. Video is output via 8 analog outputs each with programmable gain and offset.

p.s. ok will do but if not at home I've to read on my palm-top and
so it'smore easy, imagine to read the NY TIMES with no columns
just do this. Is crolling down the screen so painfull only to know
about? ronald

[Steve Nordhauser]

Ronald:
http://www.machinevisiononline.org/p...ls.cfm?id=1056

Originally developed by Photon Vision Systems. Got an early design-in with the JVC camera.

Last time I checked, the entry into a design with this sensor was extremely high, sensor costs were very high ($30K)??.

Of course, I haven't looked in a year or more. Very sweet - you can do quadlets and still have HD so it is more like a 3 sensor camera.

[Régine Weinberg]

Dear Steve, merci.

I'm subriber of the online version, but sometimes, SMPTE, Millimeter,Braodcast news and so on igoes to the !! bin and sit's there.

An old one: http://www.urbanfox.tv/articles/came...9joedunton.htm

The pic is showing Obin's idea, an Arri S16 and the back attached.
You know best a decend HD viewfinder is out of price range, an LCD nice, if there is sun only pain.
go there http://www.kinetta.com/home.php

Ok Kreines is what Ballhaus is for me, sorry me born Berlin, grew up elsewere 11 times moved due to dad's profession, he is a real hardcore cameraman. For this cam lenses you can find on the market, pl mount Angenieux is out there as well as S16 sometimes very cheap, it's not prime Digi Zeiss but ...

i'll still think only to write picture son disk, Kreines uses the I-Pod disks, Toshiba 2.5", 1.8" are there. 20 Minutes or 30 not more an small array will do. All processing could be done, some meters, as I wrote- film is not on the dark side of the moon, and if it is not top secret, set, a Van is only some meters away, like live recording. There the arry snaps in, the pictures are copied on SCSI or SATA arrays ond voila you do need at least two I-pod array's no rocket sience, sorry.

Next one, on http://www.joedunton.co.uk/ a bit strange the page click on "news archive" and then on may 03 look here (pdf format) drink a cup of tea and read on it's mainly Ikegami stuff 2 CCD .

Why a S16 Camera Body the ergonomics a cameraman is used to, the baseplate, the Kompendium anything is there. I thing of a DIY Steadycam rig, there a decent TFT monitor would make sense it's a bit cyborg like but walkable as a 35 mm with an staedycam rig is usual but no easy job at all.

ronald

p.s. I'm sitting in a coffe shop writing an a tiny display, I do hope you can read and there are not only typo's

[Régine Weinberg]

G'day, hi all my edmond optics catalog tells me on page 56 about a Rhomboid Prism doing nothing else as displacing an image or the input beam. Ok A stack of two right hand and left to it a stack of two inverted would give us 1/4 image displaced from the optical center just out of the focal plan. That could be the low budged quad sensor.

Crazy,-- we would have native 35m format, native 35 DOf.

With a russian 35 mm camara body..cool, the indie viper. Maybe here somebody is crazy enough to think off. It's not cheap at all,but cheaper as any HDcam in the 35mm format, well it's bayer coded, but,with a decend optic could be fantastic. Mechanical shutter, I'm still Vance devoted, a master clock and anyway coded, write it on the so called 2.5" Toshiba disk array.

Think of a typical set, not a lunatic one, there is a car, a break, somthing near. There the arry goes, and in let's say some minutes the images are stiched together and can be shown. thats light fast compared to real S16 or 35mm processing.

ronald

[Barend Onneweer]

I'm not exactly sure what the benefits of an optical viewfinder would be, outside of resolution.

The downside of having to split the image with a prism is that you cut the amout of light that hits the CCD in half. Which basically says you need twice the amount of light on set.

Seems to me that that might cost more in the end, than a decent video viewfinder.

And I'm not sure why you're referring to Kreines when you bring up the optical viewfinder. The Kinetta uses a video display for it's viewfinder AFAIK.

And what exactly would be the benefit of 4 smaller chips compared to 1 Altasens? If it's just the imager size...

Bar3nd

[Wayne Morellini]

Steve look at their news section instead, they haven't been keeping their parts section up to date, they announced 3 or more new models in past months (they also didn't respond to me with details) and only some chips have the data rate. I looked at the first 2MPixel?? announcement, and even if it can be programmed for video it is no Altasens, but for visually loosless video/doco probably better than any single chip HDV coming out. I think these had (long time ago have pricessor engines on board). The thing is how do they compare to the IBIS5 at a fraction of the price. The whole idea was for a low end model of the camera, I thought that would also be a significant advantage for the security and machine vison markets?

Anyway the Samsungs are only thrown in for good measure, the real "potential" prize is the other manufacturer I think.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Wayne, I went to their website and banged around the sensors a bit. The largest 1.3MPix is still only 1/3" If you do that, you might as well take a known clean sensor like the Micron 3.2Mpix (no smearing, 1/2") and window it down to 720p. We have that now - Obin is working with it. The Micron 1.3Mpix advantage is the larger pixel size (more sensitive, shallower DOF). -->>>

[Wayne Morellini]

<<<-- Originally posted by Ronald Biese : Dear Wayne: dektop graphics machine in a SUV, Van, Volkswagen-bus sbaop the array in Cinarella on Linux is not bad free and HD ready !! -->>>

I have had no success in getting people here to talk to them, or them to talk to us.

With the 4 CCD thing, I have brought up this idea in times past, withg the Olympus SHD (that uses this technique as an example). I am now of the conclusion, why not have 3 chip camera with pixel shift for each chip to get higher than 2Mpixel resolution.

I have had an old Palm Pilot they could do around 30 characters, and the newer ones around 60 characters accross you could just keep the lines to this, or better you could just do continuose text (within the paragraph) and allow dvinfo do the line wrap.

We have talked about the Porro arrangements in the 35mm adaptor threads before, and I think I suggested it for the 4 CCD arrangement before. The problems are that even though it is cheap, you have to protect from dust and grime, miss-alingment, thermal expansion (as it heats up it goes out of allignment, a real pain unless you design a automatic system to track and realign it). So If you start with a solid prism you aviode all these problems. Never the less I have been considering a personal 3 chip prism like alternative, along with an 35mm adaptor.

About the cameras, this is really a SI Micron/Altasens camera like thread (until something better comes along). People got bored of talking about other cameras a long time ago, but feel free too, I would like to see it discussed, even if others wouldn't, so maybe if people post and discuss these cameras in my technical thread everybody might be happy. Obviously Rai is reaping rewards from finding a better IBIS camera. This reminds me of speaker threads I've recently been on, just because company A hasn't been better than company B, every new speaker from company A must be inferior to B, even if the 'fanboys' haven't listened to either. Which means that who ever does the research can have speakers that walk over the elitest fanboys favourites (to their continual hysterical annoyance). My research suggestion above are just meant to do that at the bottom end. We started these threads with the idea of cheap, under $5K digital cameras (raw but now visually lossless as well) versus expensive Viper, Sony and Kinetta, that has slipped a bit. But if we are going to have $5K+ systems I think we should also have $1K+ system (which includes $2K+), the quality difference is such as to have a suitable two tier market. I have a really cheap system in mind but keep it to myself to stop interference. I've basically decided against doing it by myself, but will be after suitable volunteers when the time comes, which will be next year when the finale components come within price range.

Wayne.

[Régine Weinberg]

Re: Barend Onneweer
a Romboid Prism ist not spliting an image or beam so it takes, it has no light loss depending of price and quality a beam deviation +- up tp 30 arc seconds it take the picture out of center taht"s all.

Re : Wayne merci....as Hifi has been my hobby time ago I know a lot of this behave, funny for recording and productin I work with speakers they regard as srap .... Mirrors or porro - there is a way to avoid themal shift, vibration, etc, working with trihedral prisms, they are used with laser and as mirrors are realy a pain to set up in resarch well known.

ronald

[Obin Olson]

<<<-- Originally posted by Joshua Starnes : Obin, you had mentioned going back down to 8-bit because 12-bit was causing too many headaches. Are you still thinking about doing that, or are you going to go ahead with the Altasens chip at 12-bit. Is the 3300 of a high enough quality to shoot a good picture with? -->>>


Yes the 3300RGB is a really good chip and it will work..it's the datarate and preview update while captureing that we are working on now..we have a live preview in full color working fine but when we go to capture things really slow down and start skipping frames. Once this is worked out I will have "firmware" that works and we can start to build the entire case design and camera system....I hope this will happen very soon.

the 1300rgb is not a chip that can be used becuase of smear. Silicon Imaging's 3300RGB 1/2inch 3.2megapixel camera has great images and will run at 1080x1920 8bit and 10bit as soon as we get the framerate on preview up

I will post some images soon from the faulty captures we are getting now. They will be 8bit

[Rob Lohman]

Gabriele: Obin's RAW clips aren't readable by any normal program.
You will need programming skills to read them at this point in time.

[Jason Rodriguez]

Obin,

BTW, are you finding out if the problems are programming-related or are problems with the chipset? If the chipset, I'm still quite curious what chipset you're using, i.e., processor speed, northbridge, southbridge, integrated graphics, etc.

This info would really help us out here to know what's necessary for these camera systems.

[Obin Olson]

I am buying a MicroATX board and shipping to our programmer for final work!

things are looking up again...I have seen the "light" and captured 1080p images! i'ts not at full 24fps but close...

[Régine Weinberg]

Hm
a bit sarkastic, have a look at
http://www.dynebolic.org/
,it is a live CD you can nest on a pc, open Mosix What does ist do for us ? Run on two PC it will build easy, dump easy a cluster. It has Cinarella just ready to start, Jahshak, Gimp, it is the only LINUX out there for video or streaming music.
I've been far too long working for Intel, but only realtime. So we used Sun, embedded and strange hardware but all documents were written with Framemaker or Quark. look to any 200 or more pages Microsoft documentation, never written with Word !!

Will sayCinarell is not bad at all, I do use KNOPPIX, the easy way to get a full Debian not tested, unstable - rocksolid, as rocksolid as my beloved bi-pro SGI Octane from 1999. So Jahshasa is not Combustion but free, Cinarella can do HD even know by the big's in film biz.

As Linux is in set-top boxes, Cellphones, etc at all is GNU the Camear board coul run it as well, as the code from doo google some video for Linux is free, not Cinarell the way would be with Epix to have a Cameralink oot and an Gig Ether in. For me the only doing the job today.

Oh a bit more sorry
Ther is DV out and for consumer ther will be DV tape or maybe blueray. Interframe compression but never ever wireless or Gig ether. why.

Me strated music with five, break jump in the recording biz with 16 part time. We did Charles Mingus and much more like ECM in Munich but from a small village in the black forest. MCM gone far ago. It was easy, we bought an old famous mixing desk, tube gear nobody wanted anymore, 1972, and so on it has been a great time.

Today the entry level for live recording is very expensive, and look to http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34533 it's like all the time with music, no answer only how to mic this, what to take and is X realy better than y.
Why writing this, there is a lot of software out, running most on Windows, RME card are fantastic, but Windows is no way to have it on the road, ask the DOD. Army is the reason that somebody as SGI is still alive.

What is my love with film?
Well ist's my Eclair modded for S16 with an Acl 2 motor running up to 75 fps. Angenieux Paris f 10-150, 1:2,8 and converted from a russian Kinor F-6 mm wide angel. 1:1.8.
I do use film that pasted the date and know somebody who precesses DIY. I did it with color and Dia all th time DIY.
Than I do scan it with a scan unit out af a Pentacon Scan cam
on an old huge cutting desk, producing zillions of tiffs. scropping the image and it looks great.
It's not cheap, takes lot of disk space and so on.
But I do have no Pixel, no bayer no artifacts nothing, it only takes to scan a real a day or even more and has to be dust free. I do have the film allways as a eternal backup, well fire or moisture can eat it away.

To Wayne
you had the idea with the 2 CMOS setup on in the place of the penta prism and one in the film plane. So why not use 4 all the setup in some high tech plastic, carbon or so sealed, glued together, most airplanes are "glued" together nowadays.
Why so crazy, one Altasens is even not the S16 format
The Foveon with the low resolution can group pixels together, thats not bad, he is 3 layer, and four of these would give a real nice DOF could be $$ but ... reolution ? but low light and so on, no bayer 3 Cmos in one chip.

Think of it, on a 35mm camera ther is, ok shutter speed no way to have another setup no gamma no look no no no.
Why the hell to have it on our baby, the viewfinder issue is not easy and religion. All the rest is lunatic, go out and look to a S16 or 35mm shooting. That's Film and needs a crew, that's not video, and now we have the force that drives us mad, cost of production. You can do 35mm or better S16 with team of two and even some ambient sound, the rest is post roduction and why change this. A lot of indie, documentation and even drame was shot this way. The price of Kreines cam drives me mad that's a fact.
What is the issue with me?
Well I do need to adjust speed, to have exposure shutter as with an Eclair, Aaton , Arri, toged rid of noisy motor and cumbersum expensive film, but have S16 DOF at least, nicer would be nera 35mm DOF. Relolution could even be 2x blown up in post, why not
but no Argus, ground glass or so, as it takes light away and there is never too much light in film

merci

[Eric Gorski]

Ronald.. are all your messages translated from french into english by a computer program? It kind of sounds like it? or i mean.. um.. sound of kind like why not.