4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

[Eric Gorski]

it just occured to me that we could use a numberpad (like the mini keyboards that people use to crunch numbers) as something that could be attached to a camera body and allow on camera control... here's a link to what i'm talking about..

http://numberpads.com/products/numbe...tmedia_np1.htm

maybe someone already thought about this..

[Jason Rodriguez]

Actually yes . . .

Try this: http://www.xkeys.com/xkeys/xkstick.php

It also comes with software to map the keys and mouse clicks

[Rob LaPoint]

Hey Ben I am strongly considering buying a sumix IBIS-5 camera. I know that this is not going to be a final version camera. Eventually I would like to be shooting on the Altasens but I need to start getting something put together now and hopefully shift the altasens into the workflow once its setup. I am wondering if you could just give me a little sum up of your experience with the ibis-5.

[Jason Rodriguez]

I would seriously not purchase anything at this point in time. The Altasens sensor-based products are right around the corner here in the next two-three months.

Also beware that they won't be cheap. I believe that Steve has already mentioned here that you should expect to pay $4500 for the camera with that sensor. So if you go out and purchase another $1000 for the Sumix, you're getting yourself that much further behind.

[Steve Nordhauser]

A lot of ground covered. Yes there are relatively cheap fast lenses:
http://www.navitar.com/zoom/cctv_do2595.htm 25mm f0.95
http://www.navitar.com/zoom/cctv_do1795.htm 17mm f0.95

These are 1" c mount and sell for $380 and $450 single piece. There is also a 50mm listed for $725. They will have a narrower FOV for smaller sensors.
These are machine vision lenses so they are not in the same league with Schneider and such. It depends on the sensor pitch (like film grain) how much of an issue it is.

IBIS-5A. If you want a 12 bit A/D, that is what we have. The internal 10 bit only makes things worse. Global shutter is a good thing for sure. Compromises are made.

Rai and Markus, my hat is off to you - you completed the camera project and are using it for its purpose. That is a real accomplishment. It is up to you as to whether you want to use or add to the collective information transfer of this group.

[Ben Syverson]

Machine vision lenses are not worth the expense; you can find good cinema lenses for less. I think I paid in the US$200-300 range for my vintage (but never used) Cinegon.

Rob, I wouldn't recommend jumping on the IBIS at the moment. It's just not ready for film production -- it's extremely insensitive, the global shutter mode cuts your exposure further and is thus totally worthless, and better things are right around the corner. It's been fun to experiment with, and it does have an interesting look, but it's rather frustrating at times...

The Altasens models should be coming out pretty soon, and then you'll be able to choose from a few different vendors. For example, if you need CameraLink, Steve and SI will have you covered. If you want FW800, Sumix will hook you up. There also may be price adjustments based on competition.

I'd sit back and relax for a couple months and keep working on the script. :)

And to Soeren: The DOF is not the same as a standard resolution video camera with a 2/3" sensor. Remember that higher resolution will expose smaller circles of confusion. So if you have a 2/3" sensor with a resolution of 160x120, it will look like everything's in focus all the time. If you have a 2/3" sensor with 2 megapixel resolution, you'll spend a lot more time focusing...

What is this obsession with 35mm DOF, anyway? A lot of 35mm cinematographers would kill for better DOF! To my eye, 720p on a 2/3" sensor gets me shallow DOF when I want it, and deep focus when I need it. It's the perfect size. People on these boards spend way too many hours slaving to make things look like Panavision. Why not embrace this unique format for all its beautiful properties?

- ben

[Jason Rodriguez]

Actually 2/3" format is about the same as 16mm which passes for a lot of professional products all the time on T.V., and nobody complains about DOF problems.

I agree though, 35mm DOF is nice for some things, but for general use, documentaries, etc., it's an extreme pain-in-the-butt.

[Soeren Mueller]

Ben, thanks (again ;o) for all the information you're sharing. However it seems you misunderstood me in regard to the DOF thing.. it was just to clarify things for me - meant as a question more or less. It's not that I'm "obsessed" with 35mm sensor sizes/DOF or anything. And of course you're right about the DOF differences when it comes to the different resolutions. However I meant the uhm.. dunno how to put it... the "overall rough DOF effect". ;-P

I'm fine with 2/3"... however I'd like to have slightly more res than "only" 720p. What about this (well sorry - although I'm not obsessed with 35mm DOF there _is_ some sort of obsession here with anamorphics ;o) -> all of these "easy to use" sensors (when it comes to handling all the data etc.) sport at least 1280 x 1024... by using an anamorphic adapter you wouldn't be far from 1080p (using some high quality scaling in post ;o). So instead of dismissing 304 "lines" of resolution simply use the full frame and an anamorphic lense. (yeah I know that you'll loose some light because of it)

[Jason Rodriguez]

With the Altasens you ARE at 1920x1080, no need to try.

[Ben Syverson]

Soeren,

I'm a big anamorphics fan as well -- I have a Kowa 1.75x lens I use for shooting 2.35:1 with 4x3 sensors... But I'm not planning on using it in HD, just because I want as little glass in front of the lens as possible. It's not a light loss issue, it's a chromatic aberration issue and a softness issue.

Also, I've come to really like the 16x9 format. I thought briefly of shooting full frame with a 16x9 anamorphic adapter, but I'd rather shoot clean... Personally, resolution is not a big deal -- 720p is good enough for me... I'm just excited to be shooting with a frame larger than 720x480...

[Rob LaPoint]

Hey guys thanks for the replies. I understand the sentiments of not blowing 1000 on an ibis-5 when in the end it isn't what any of us want. My idea all along has been to wait for the Altasens. However, I have a script now and need to start raising some money, having an HD raw system was going to be one of my big selling points. So basically I need a few pieces of eye candy that 'prove' that I have that system. What I was hoping was that buy buying a cheaper camera I could get a couple of test shots while learning more about these systems for when the altasens came out. Like I said, I am still weighing all options, which is why I posted.

I think a big problem for people like me is that I come from a film making background not an engineering background. While I do
dabble with all sorts of engineering related things the nuance of a really good bayer de-mosaicer is beyond me. So without something in my hands to work with and test its all just speculation. I really appreciate all the work everyone has been going to, it has been a huge education for me, I'm just itching to get my hands dirty.

I agree with Ben on the DOF. A really well composed shot with really shallow DOF is amazing looking, but its like morphing or matrix effects. If it is over used its worthless. When you are making a movie its important to take things shot by shot. You should concern yourself with only what is needed for that shot. So if you only have 10 shots that will require intense DOF there are ways to fudge it (use a longer lens, mess with it in post, ect...) I really loved the idea of a 35 adapter at first but then realized that in the end it probably isn't necesary if enough time is given to what the shots are going to be and how they will be achieved.

As far as the anamorphics are concerned I agree that it is a really viable option, I just finished shooting a project on 35 anamorphic and it was beautiful (and insanely expensive) I am not aware of any c-mount anamorphics, which puts us back to an adapter of some sort.

[Marto Lautz]

Ok, I been following the forum for a few month now.
and see that people say that this forum is to share information and then back up when is it is the time to release it.
I'm going to spend my time and my very low badget ( all from my pocket) to build a camera and if I do it taken information from the forum I will be devoted to it posting step by step my progess.
please practice waht you say, that is the way it should be.

Ben Syverson please Is there the beta software available?
Let see if any one here is willing to share the secrets of any working set up.
So right now we only have available altasens and ib5a any other recomendations?
I know I can build a very small computer but waht we are talking here is waht kind of interface to use that depends from the cmos you actually buy.
I have read that there is a camera working wiht firewire interface but at the moment I haven't found any cmos wiht taht interface.
Ok I'm open to hear from you guys.

I'm actually filming with super16 and I love it enough dof at 1.4
so I can live at the moment with 3/4 inch and when a good 1inch cmos came to play yust buy it and snap it on to your camera.and go shut that it is waht all of this is about.

[Ben Syverson]

Marto,

My software was available on my website, but someone hacked into our server recently, so it'll take me a bit to get it back up there... I should remind people that I'm not developing a comprehensive image capture application -- my software is a free After Effects plug-in for de-bayering.

There are no "secrets" here, despite what you might think from reading some peoples' posts. Rob, Obin and I have been very up-front about the systems we put together and how we're going about it.

For instance, I'm a pretty strong advocate against mini-PCs and Cameralink. My opinion is that if you use an interface that's available on a laptop (such as Firewire or Gigabit Ethernet), there's no need for a custom built mini-PC with an overly expensive Cameralink PCI card.

Sumix is designing a Firewire800 Altasens camera, but just like everyone else using the Altasens chip, they're at the mercy of the chipmaker. From what I understand, Altasens has promised to deliver to manufacturers sometime in December, which should give us release dates of January or February. (?) Sumix has also stated interest in developing for Linux and Mac OS X, both of which endear them to me as well...

The Altasens and the IBIS-5A are both 2/3", and have a very similar size to Super16, so you'll probably like the image characteristics.

- ben

[Marto Lautz]

Thnks Ben
waht you think about this
micron MT9M413
1,280H x 1,024V (1,310,720 pixels)
12.0µm x 12.0µm 19.67mm
0–500+ frames/sec. (full array) >10,000 frames/sec. with partial scan
660 MB/sec. (master clock 66 MHz)
<150mW @ 60 frames/sec. <500mW @ 500 frames/sec.
+3.3V 10-bit digital through 10 parallel ports (color or monochrome)
TrueSNAP freeze-frame electronic shutter
280-pin ceramic PGA High Speed

I know waht you mean but where I can find a firewire altasens cmos censor sumix sells usb? do you know when it'll be released?
will you be willing to send me the plug ing by email or chat/
thanks

[Michael Pappas]

Hello Board! I thought I would introduce myself and say hello. I have been with DVinfo.net since it's birth many years ago. Chris Hurd being a friend of mine I make this board my forum home-base. Chris kept telling me to check out the Alternative Imaging Methods forum for some time, so one day I did while thinking what so special about this forum that Chris keeps pushing me to it. Well, to my surprise I knew why, the first clip I saw i couldn't believe it. Since then I have anonymously watched things develop. I have told Chrisa while ago that the alternative board section is and should be voted number 1 in DV magazine as being the most cutting edge publicly on display in HD/digital cinema research and design. I hope they do this. This place is cutting edge. I'm from the film side, that's where i learned my craft, Since the early eighties I have been also an advocate and supporter of electronic cinematography long before any of my collegues would even look at it. High-Def has had me hooked since I was 17 back in 1987 where I got to have my first use of it, and ever since then addicted to it's resolving power etc. That was also the year that Julia & Julia with Turner and Sting camera out, this was the first HD movie I saw on the major big screens in USA. It was in its fetus stage compared to the infant it is today. I have worked with the best from Showscan 60fps ( my favorite ), Iwerks to where we are today and in between. Many years ago, I wanted to build my own HD like system, but you all know that up tell recently it was cost prohibitive as well the technology was not off the shelve as it is becoming. When it comes to technology I am best at putting the pieces together and designing a workable system from components. My limitation is I don't build CCD,Cmos,circuit boards or write software. I have the highest respect for those that can.

Until yesterday I have had only two clips from this board. The two consisted of a flower pot on a buildings porch and surrounding parking lot. The other was of a guy with his watch and a red pickup truck. I have know idea the source except the link is from here. When I had put this on a 30+ foot screen it was remarkable many months ago and my jaw dropped. Not only because of the quality, but because the fact that is was done from a camera in the palm of their hand from a USB cable I believe. Again since I don't know who filmed it or what was used. I am guessing.... The quality on a screen looked like film, actually it reminded me of late 70's early 80's 35mm 5247 stock that had color issues. What's crazy is those clips are dupes that are not anywhere near the originals.

I feel those of you that are doing this are ground breaking a path that will spawn all sorts of small camera manufactures like we had 20-30-40 years ago for 8mm-16mm 35mm motion picture cameras. Years ago I was speaking in LA on the future of Cinema and told the audience that one day people will be able to by off the shelve CCDs components memory card recorders etc and piece them together into a working component digital cinema system. I had know idea it was going to start to happen so soon.

Here we are today- Why have I not bothered to post is I had nothing to offer to help you and felt it was better to listen and read in this case. My experience is, and many including Chris Hurd will back me up is I know imagery. I have had the privilege to work and be exposed to some of the highest level of quality. At Showscan many years ago when Douglas Trumbull owned it, this was detailed motion picture quality at it's best. Sony's special HD devision would bring cameras in to he lab and do extremely high-res tests of ShowScan in the early 90's, unfortunately it spoiled me to the point my eye becomes to damn picky and sensitive to quality issues. A problem with many cinematographers as well. Since I live just 45 minutes from ASC clubhouse, since I was teenager i have had the privilege to be in the Company of Daviau, Zsigmond, Wexler, Kovacs, Burum etc since I was a kid. That was my film School. Of course I have never got to talk to Storaro, ggrrrrrr...... He is a master of color and light.

Yesterday, Markus Rupprecht came over to the FX1 section and posted his clips. The one with the lady was excellent, it's a good selling piece for this kind of technology setup . I will have plenty of stupid questions that I am sure has been answered many times.


First question I have:
What would it take to get 720P 10bit at 30fps and 24fps. Can a laptop be used for this? What brand cameras are out there that are proven. Lastly could I get a list of links to clips other then the one's I have mentioned.

Thanks in advance.


Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArtsHD
http://www.PappasArt.com
Costa Mesa, Ca, USA