Home made camera designs?

Richard Mellor · June 4th, 2004, 02:09 PM

Hi everyone
obin, thiis is a link to the agus 35 with the 1500 grit .
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/mellor/

this might be fine enough grain for our high def cameras

Richard Mellor · June 4th, 2004, 02:14 PM

this is a link to the ground glass
http://www.optosigma.com/miva/mercha...+%26+Apertures

the part number is 099-0160

Jason Rodriguez · June 4th, 2004, 02:36 PM

combustion does support 16-bit TIFF. It also can work in a 32-bit-per-channel color space.

Obin Olson · June 4th, 2004, 03:26 PM

Rob Scott, that board looks great! it has SATA AND a pci slot..all you need...is that CPU fast enough? can you do a sata raid off 2 standard sata connections? why the need for sata anyway..I have heard that sata as it is NOW is slower then the best IDE drives by a good %...true?

Steve Nordhauser · June 4th, 2004, 03:39 PM

7200RPM SATA is *supposed* to be able to do 50MB/sec continously. Theoretically, 1280x720x30fps 8 bit is 28MB/sec avg, about 35MB/sec peak.

In theory there is no difference between theory and reality. In reality, there is a difference.

The biggest is that drives slow down as you move from the outer tracks (outside circumference of the platter) to the inner tracks. Smaller circumference for the same rotational speed equals less data in the same time. Which way do you think the drive manufacturers spec their drives - slowest or fastest continuous spec?

If the RAID controller is built into the chip set, you will pay a $30 premium or so. Two drives will cost more but give you twice the recording time - not a real loss - use smaller drives if you need to save money.

I guess what I'm saying is that if the 2 drive RAID doesn't cost much more, it is a better option.

Obin Olson · June 4th, 2004, 05:17 PM

Steve, I got images captured from Streampix (learned how to do it) now the only problem is the color red is green and greens are red....can't seem to figure it out...bayer processing does nothing to fix it ..ideas steve?

Valeriu Campan · June 4th, 2004, 06:23 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : 7200RPM SATA is *supposed* to be able to do 50MB/sec continously. Theoretically, 1280x720x30fps 8 bit is 28MB/sec avg, about 35MB/sec peak. a better option. -->>>

I am a bit lost here: this HD camera model is supposed to generate files that will later, in post will be converted to film via a film recorder and 24 frames/second is needed. By the way is there an option for the SI cameras to work or have a factory preset at 24fps?
Are we looking only at HDTV? Isn't that a 1080p format?

In stills photography the RAW format is the only acceptable capture for professional results. There are quite a few RAW convertes out there. The one I like is AdobeCameraRaw that works as a PlugIn in Photoshop. I don't see why not it can be ported to AfterEffects (same manufacturer and sort of similar architecture). For compositing, color correction environement, 16bit RGB files are a must. The output renders can be 8 bit.

As for capture software, a simple one is here:
http://www.bensoftware.com/btvpro.html but unfortunately is written for Mac (9 @ OSX , though OSX is a variant of Unix).

Valeriu Campan · June 4th, 2004, 06:29 PM

The Viper camera files are also recorded in a RAW variant. There is a converter capable to open them at www.xnview.com
If anybody is interested, I have some sample RAW captured frames from the Viper that are free to be assesed, but they are 7.9Mb each!!!!

Steve Nordhauser · June 4th, 2004, 06:30 PM

Valeriu,
Sorry, that is me generating some confusion because I don't know the industry. Our cameras have a programmable clock generator - you can set the frame rate. I'm never quite sure when people will want 24 vs 30fps since I think the broadcast people all want 30....in the US anyway. PAL is a different rate. Then some people want a camera that can do twice the frame rate - for special effects, to drop every other frame to minimize the rolling shutter artifacts or to meet one of the new standards.

I just know frame sizes, frame rates and clock frequency.

Valeriu Campan · June 4th, 2004, 06:42 PM

Thank you Steve,
Yes, the PAL standard requires 25 frames, but film projection is set to 24 fps worldwide. It will be a a very daunting task to convert 30pfs to 24 or 25 especially when you deal with such a huge amount of data for a feature length project. Wouldn't be simpler to have the 25, 24, 29.7, 30 fps inbuilt or easily programable. All the HD cameras we are trying to emulate or surpass are capable of doing this...
...And I have a vested interest: I work in PAL and film environement.
Also, 25 fps can be used in projection as long as the soundtrack is altered for the 24fps lengths and the pitch adjusted. Many "films" shot with Canon XL1or other PAL cameras are done this way. There is a demand of PAL XL1 cameras among independent US film makers especially for this reason.

Obin Olson · June 4th, 2004, 07:39 PM

Steve can the 1300rgb be locked at 24fps or is that going go up and down as you shoot?
FILM 24fps
BROADCAST TV 30FPS and 60fields/sec
Europe 25fps PAL broadcast TV
effects shots 1-120fps
get rid of rolling shutter 60fps and drop one in two frames for broadcast TV and 48fps drop one in two frames for film production

HTH

Jason Rodriguez · June 4th, 2004, 10:43 PM

I understand what a rolling shutter is, but what are the electronic shutters on the Sony F900, etc. like? Are those rolling, or are they single shot? Will rolling shutter look funky on the movie screen?

Also doesn't the SI1300, or at least the Micron chipp it's based off of have the option for a single-frame mode instead of rolling shutter?

Wayne Morellini · June 5th, 2004, 12:12 AM

Hi Guys, playing catchup, some valuable information below for a some of you.

Robs' it is good to see you here on this. (and I was just getting used to having two Steves ;)

You may notice my spelling improving a bit, as I got rid of the wireless keyboards (virtually smashed the thing) and got another usb model. Interesting thing is that I think the regional HD test broadcasts where what was interfering with it, the same time every day in particular.

Now some important programming stuff.

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : guys from what I can see sofar we need a VERY basic capture program that is easy to use unlike the camera link programs like streampix and norpix stuff...this needs to look and act as much as it can like a *normal* video capture app and we also need a way to view the live stream as it's captured on a TV or an LCD that can run by cable or wireless to the camera ..what would really be nice is if we could somehow take the cameralink signal and feed it to a harddisk AFTER we setup the camera settings via computer.... -->>>

There might be the possibility that you could control the capture program from a seperate control program written in Visual C or something. You would have to check if you can pass commands to the capture program. This saves you from writing a capture program and allows you to use the best one you want.

Yes I agree that keeping the data in Bayer (for a Bayer camera) is probably the best until you want to edit, then what do you do? Converting to a true image (and back to Bayer might not be feasable). Look at what the film industry is using, might be best. I don't like it at low HD res, too many compromises, especially when there will be 3 chip cameras cheap. With Bayer you are loosing and keeping it there is good, but with true 4:4:4 3 chip, you have 100% data and can convert it to any format desired with maximun quality.What happens when somebody hacks direct to disc off the head of one of those. People are allready talking of doing this with Single CHip HD10, so we defintely want sensors that beats it (even if they do achieve it the camera is still too restricted).

Before anybody buys anything more, remember that Sumix (if they are going ahead) maybe here within months and there also is Silicon Imaging. So a few people might like to hold on for them, and if we had real data the software could be made the same time. Otherwise if they deliver the goods you won't have the money to buy it. Still you could develope remotely, and the guy with the caera tests it. Go look at the site ofd the Russian fellow, you will find interesting stuff there and probably reference to existing Open source software, even if it is in Linux it could be converted to Windows.

Compression software must be slack if it can't compress a true simple checkerboard pattern (which would be a handful of bytes).

Rob: about the ITX boards, things are going to continue to imporove over time. Email the ITX section of VIA, they are very helpful, describe what we are doing and ask them about what features they have coming out on there mini-itx, and nan-itx boards int he future. The ITX section is spread over a few sites so I don't know who totalk to anymore, I was goign to pretty much wait until closer to the release date and look then myself. Ther make a number of reference boards for different products, while I don't know if they would make a cameralink reference baord for us (and I guess many camera vendors would also like to sell), one of the future reference designs might suit. Actually the processor uses something like 7watts per GHZ, thats nearly ten 10GHZ worth for around the same power ussage of some of the AMD processors. This makes them excellent chioce for thin blade servers, so maybe they might have a future 4+ processors MB up their sleves that could be used. Also remeber that capture should need a lot less processor than simultaneouse capture and compress. I think Intel or Micrososft also has a Mini-Itx like board coming out. Also a number of manufacturers do small boards for small cube cases (SIS is one).

As far as I know ITX has PCI in the mini-itx (but also look for AGP), and mini-pci in nano-itx (but look around for full PCI). I think it is also possible to get a mini-pci to PCI adapter. I have also seen PCI/AGP benders, that allow the cards to sit parrallel to the MB (they are a special testing tool around $30US I thiunk).

I've seen these boards quote virtual Raid (also have heard of software raid). I have asked here what that was before but got no reply, does this board say that?

Does anybody know of a board with dual Gigabit ethernet, that would be good (if there was a daul GBE hookup to a camera).

By the way, as the bayer on the 1300 camerra only requires 24mbs why not just go USB.

Data Packing should be able to be done on the data being outputed by the capture software (in parrallel).

Robs, their are small book sized minpc's out there also (with big processors). Look at the partner, and design win pages of the VIA ITX pages for links )hard to find, I think in the smnall blue links on the right hand side, or go through the drop doen list). While you maybe able to hack these for extra drives, some manufacturers offer the MB seperately. Have a look in the links I posted previously, I'm sure the Cappocino PC maker is there.

Valeriu:

The Viper is a bayer pattern camera isn't it? Maybe you could give us some advise on how it processes it's images.

Valeriu Campan · June 5th, 2004, 01:13 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini :
The Viper is a bayer pattern camera isn't it? Maybe you could give us some advise on how it processes it's images. -->>>

Wayne,
I posted an URL of a site than has a image converter that will open the Viper frames into an RGB TIFF. The original camera frames that I have are 7.9MB each. If someone volunteers to host some samples, let me know.

Valeriu Campan · June 5th, 2004, 01:25 AM

Here is the link again for the software that can open the VIPER frames: http://www.xnview.com
Both VIPER and DALSA are using bayer pattern chips. I would love to see a Foveon based chip that can sustain high frame rates and good sensitivity. They are probably the next gen chip, but for now, we have use what we've got.

June 4th, 2004, 02:09 PM	#121
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	high def ground glass? Hi everyone obin, thiis is a link to the agus 35 with the 1500 grit . http://www.dvinfo.net/media/mellor/ this might be fine enough grain for our high def cameras

June 4th, 2004, 02:14 PM	#122
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	ground glass this is a link to the ground glass http://www.optosigma.com/miva/mercha...+%26+Apertures the part number is 099-0160

June 4th, 2004, 03:39 PM	#125
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	7200RPM SATA is supposed to be able to do 50MB/sec continously. Theoretically, 1280x720x30fps 8 bit is 28MB/sec avg, about 35MB/sec peak. In theory there is no difference between theory and reality. In reality, there is a difference. The biggest is that drives slow down as you move from the outer tracks (outside circumference of the platter) to the inner tracks. Smaller circumference for the same rotational speed equals less data in the same time. Which way do you think the drive manufacturers spec their drives - slowest or fastest continuous spec? If the RAID controller is built into the chip set, you will pay a $30 premium or so. Two drives will cost more but give you twice the recording time - not a real loss - use smaller drives if you need to save money. I guess what I'm saying is that if the 2 drive RAID doesn't cost much more, it is a better option. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

June 4th, 2004, 06:30 PM	#129
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Valeriu, Sorry, that is me generating some confusion because I don't know the industry. Our cameras have a programmable clock generator - you can set the frame rate. I'm never quite sure when people will want 24 vs 30fps since I think the broadcast people all want 30....in the US anyway. PAL is a different rate. Then some people want a camera that can do twice the frame rate - for special effects, to drop every other frame to minimize the rolling shutter artifacts or to meet one of the new standards. I just know frame sizes, frame rates and clock frequency. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

June 4th, 2004, 02:36 PM	#123
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	combustion does support 16-bit TIFF. It also can work in a 32-bit-per-channel color space.

June 4th, 2004, 03:26 PM	#124
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Rob Scott, that board looks great! it has SATA AND a pci slot..all you need...is that CPU fast enough? can you do a sata raid off 2 standard sata connections? why the need for sata anyway..I have heard that sata as it is NOW is slower then the best IDE drives by a good %...true?

June 4th, 2004, 05:17 PM	#126
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Steve, I got images captured from Streampix (learned how to do it) now the only problem is the color red is green and greens are red....can't seem to figure it out...bayer processing does nothing to fix it ..ideas steve?

June 4th, 2004, 06:23 PM	#127
Valeriu Campan Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 223	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : 7200RPM SATA is supposed to be able to do 50MB/sec continously. Theoretically, 1280x720x30fps 8 bit is 28MB/sec avg, about 35MB/sec peak. a better option. -->>> I am a bit lost here: this HD camera model is supposed to generate files that will later, in post will be converted to film via a film recorder and 24 frames/second is needed. By the way is there an option for the SI cameras to work or have a factory preset at 24fps? Are we looking only at HDTV? Isn't that a 1080p format? In stills photography the RAW format is the only acceptable capture for professional results. There are quite a few RAW convertes out there. The one I like is AdobeCameraRaw that works as a PlugIn in Photoshop. I don't see why not it can be ported to AfterEffects (same manufacturer and sort of similar architecture). For compositing, color correction environement, 16bit RGB files are a must. The output renders can be 8 bit. As for capture software, a simple one is here: http://www.bensoftware.com/btvpro.html but unfortunately is written for Mac (9 @ OSX , though OSX is a variant of Unix).

June 4th, 2004, 06:29 PM	#128
Valeriu Campan Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 223	The Viper camera files are also recorded in a RAW variant. There is a converter capable to open them at www.xnview.com If anybody is interested, I have some sample RAW captured frames from the Viper that are free to be assesed, but they are 7.9Mb each!!!!

June 4th, 2004, 06:42 PM	#130
Valeriu Campan Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 223	Thank you Steve, Yes, the PAL standard requires 25 frames, but film projection is set to 24 fps worldwide. It will be a a very daunting task to convert 30pfs to 24 or 25 especially when you deal with such a huge amount of data for a feature length project. Wouldn't be simpler to have the 25, 24, 29.7, 30 fps inbuilt or easily programable. All the HD cameras we are trying to emulate or surpass are capable of doing this... ...And I have a vested interest: I work in PAL and film environement. Also, 25 fps can be used in projection as long as the soundtrack is altered for the 24fps lengths and the pitch adjusted. Many "films" shot with Canon XL1or other PAL cameras are done this way. There is a demand of PAL XL1 cameras among independent US film makers especially for this reason.

June 4th, 2004, 07:39 PM	#131
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Steve can the 1300rgb be locked at 24fps or is that going go up and down as you shoot? FILM 24fps BROADCAST TV 30FPS and 60fields/sec Europe 25fps PAL broadcast TV effects shots 1-120fps get rid of rolling shutter 60fps and drop one in two frames for broadcast TV and 48fps drop one in two frames for film production HTH

June 4th, 2004, 10:43 PM	#132
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	I understand what a rolling shutter is, but what are the electronic shutters on the Sony F900, etc. like? Are those rolling, or are they single shot? Will rolling shutter look funky on the movie screen? Also doesn't the SI1300, or at least the Micron chipp it's based off of have the option for a single-frame mode instead of rolling shutter?

June 5th, 2004, 12:12 AM	#133
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Hi Guys, playing catchup, some valuable information below for a some of you. Robs' it is good to see you here on this. (and I was just getting used to having two Steves ;) You may notice my spelling improving a bit, as I got rid of the wireless keyboards (virtually smashed the thing) and got another usb model. Interesting thing is that I think the regional HD test broadcasts where what was interfering with it, the same time every day in particular. Now some important programming stuff. <<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : guys from what I can see sofar we need a VERY basic capture program that is easy to use unlike the camera link programs like streampix and norpix stuff...this needs to look and act as much as it can like a normal video capture app and we also need a way to view the live stream as it's captured on a TV or an LCD that can run by cable or wireless to the camera ..what would really be nice is if we could somehow take the cameralink signal and feed it to a harddisk AFTER we setup the camera settings via computer.... -->>> There might be the possibility that you could control the capture program from a seperate control program written in Visual C or something. You would have to check if you can pass commands to the capture program. This saves you from writing a capture program and allows you to use the best one you want. Yes I agree that keeping the data in Bayer (for a Bayer camera) is probably the best until you want to edit, then what do you do? Converting to a true image (and back to Bayer might not be feasable). Look at what the film industry is using, might be best. I don't like it at low HD res, too many compromises, especially when there will be 3 chip cameras cheap. With Bayer you are loosing and keeping it there is good, but with true 4:4:4 3 chip, you have 100% data and can convert it to any format desired with maximun quality.What happens when somebody hacks direct to disc off the head of one of those. People are allready talking of doing this with Single CHip HD10, so we defintely want sensors that beats it (even if they do achieve it the camera is still too restricted). Before anybody buys anything more, remember that Sumix (if they are going ahead) maybe here within months and there also is Silicon Imaging. So a few people might like to hold on for them, and if we had real data the software could be made the same time. Otherwise if they deliver the goods you won't have the money to buy it. Still you could develope remotely, and the guy with the caera tests it. Go look at the site ofd the Russian fellow, you will find interesting stuff there and probably reference to existing Open source software, even if it is in Linux it could be converted to Windows. Compression software must be slack if it can't compress a true simple checkerboard pattern (which would be a handful of bytes). Rob: about the ITX boards, things are going to continue to imporove over time. Email the ITX section of VIA, they are very helpful, describe what we are doing and ask them about what features they have coming out on there mini-itx, and nan-itx boards int he future. The ITX section is spread over a few sites so I don't know who totalk to anymore, I was goign to pretty much wait until closer to the release date and look then myself. Ther make a number of reference boards for different products, while I don't know if they would make a cameralink reference baord for us (and I guess many camera vendors would also like to sell), one of the future reference designs might suit. Actually the processor uses something like 7watts per GHZ, thats nearly ten 10GHZ worth for around the same power ussage of some of the AMD processors. This makes them excellent chioce for thin blade servers, so maybe they might have a future 4+ processors MB up their sleves that could be used. Also remeber that capture should need a lot less processor than simultaneouse capture and compress. I think Intel or Micrososft also has a Mini-Itx like board coming out. Also a number of manufacturers do small boards for small cube cases (SIS is one). As far as I know ITX has PCI in the mini-itx (but also look for AGP), and mini-pci in nano-itx (but look around for full PCI). I think it is also possible to get a mini-pci to PCI adapter. I have also seen PCI/AGP benders, that allow the cards to sit parrallel to the MB (they are a special testing tool around $30US I thiunk). I've seen these boards quote virtual Raid (also have heard of software raid). I have asked here what that was before but got no reply, does this board say that? Does anybody know of a board with dual Gigabit ethernet, that would be good (if there was a daul GBE hookup to a camera). By the way, as the bayer on the 1300 camerra only requires 24mbs why not just go USB. Data Packing should be able to be done on the data being outputed by the capture software (in parrallel). Robs, their are small book sized minpc's out there also (with big processors). Look at the partner, and design win pages of the VIA ITX pages for links )hard to find, I think in the smnall blue links on the right hand side, or go through the drop doen list). While you maybe able to hack these for extra drives, some manufacturers offer the MB seperately. Have a look in the links I posted previously, I'm sure the Cappocino PC maker is there. Valeriu: The Viper is a bayer pattern camera isn't it? Maybe you could give us some advise on how it processes it's images.

June 5th, 2004, 01:13 AM	#134
Valeriu Campan Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 223	<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : The Viper is a bayer pattern camera isn't it? Maybe you could give us some advise on how it processes it's images. -->>> Wayne, I posted an URL of a site than has a image converter that will open the Viper frames into an RGB TIFF. The original camera frames that I have are 7.9MB each. If someone volunteers to host some samples, let me know.

June 5th, 2004, 01:25 AM	#135
Valeriu Campan Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 223	Here is the link again for the software that can open the VIPER frames: http://www.xnview.com Both VIPER and DALSA are using bayer pattern chips. I would love to see a Foveon based chip that can sustain high frame rates and good sensitivity. They are probably the next gen chip, but for now, we have use what we've got.