Home made camera designs?

Wayne Morellini · June 2nd, 2004, 09:50 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Wayne,
First, honestly, most of our applications are industrial and camera link is *the* standard in non-cinema connectivity. Second, it is very fast and extendable.

Cost isn't so bad - our basic bundle with a camera (32 bit frame grabber, 2m cable, power supply and cable and some basic GUI software) is $500. The 64 bit/66MHz frame grabbers start at $1200 but will be dropping soon.
-->>>

Yes that is why I like the camera link interface, it is a good alternative standard to the very expensive SDIHD, but how expensive is it really (I know that it is limited and that is why I don't personally like it). If we can start up an alternative standard in interfacing (anybody that wants to interface to standard TV industry interfacing can pay the extra fo it, but we don't need it to do work). Most of my suggestions of late piont to an alternative work flow to the industry standard.

Now that $500 price cameralink (which I take is if you buy a camera as well), is still $500 more than USB2.0 ($100 I would not even care). So what about my suggestion of multilinking USB2.0, Gigethernet (but wht main board will; do that), SATA RAID/virtual; RAID/Software RAID, or cameralink board on PCI-Express, or AGP, is that possible? I personally have seen a reference to some new consumer HD serial interface that does around 5Gbit/s. Then there is the 10 Gigabit ethernet standard, is that comming to a motherboard chipset anytime soon? Sorry to harp on about it, just thinking of the whole market, top to bottom, would probably be good for industrial applications aswell. Look forward to seeing example footage from your cameras here in the near future.

I personally think that single chip true 720 and acceptable 1080 is good, which works along the data rates you mentioned. When these things get blown up big screen true is better unless you are going above 1080. If there is a propper cheap interface/software workflow solution I think there is market for single and 3chip boxs.

If you go to the link at the begining of this thread tot he Russian network camera, he has some cheap opensource FPGA compression designs for gigbit erthenet in his cameras.

Sorry for this bulk of writing Steve, it is late.

Thanks

Wayne.

Rob Scott · June 2nd, 2004, 10:15 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser :

64 bit frame grabbers are available with dual base or full interfaces which doubles that. Data rates are high - the standard clock goes to 66MHz (at 24 bits) but the newer cards can do 85MHz. This means that you could run the AltaSens chip - 12 bit, dual tap 75MHz over to a single frame grabber.

Cost isn't so bad - our basic bundle with a camera (32 bit frame grabber, 2m cable, power supply and cable and some basic GUI software) is $500. The 64 bit/66MHz frame grabbers start at $1200 but will be dropping soon. -->>>

OK, just for clarification -- will one of your existing frame grabbers handle the full resolution/full frame rate of the AltaSens 3560 -- 60 fps? Which one and how much does it cost?

Also ... you mentioned that you have new cameras coming out soon. Can I assume that one of them will be based on the AltaSens 3560 chip? Any idea about price range?

Also also ... I notice that some of your frame grabbers come with an SDK. How is the SDK licensed -- can we develop GPL'd software with it?

Thanks!

Obin Olson · June 2nd, 2004, 10:32 AM

Steve I need you to call me asap I have your camera and need help!
thanks!

Wayne Morellini · June 2nd, 2004, 11:53 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Scott :
Also ... you mentioned that you have new cameras coming out soon. Can I assume that one of them will be based on the AltaSens 3560 chip? Any idea about price range?

Also also ... I notice that some of your frame grabbers come with an SDK. How is the SDK licensed -- can we develop GPL'd software with it?

Thanks! -->>>

Yery good pickup Rob. You know that those ITX boards have PCI, I am wondering how many pixels hor/vert to get an effective resolution 1080 picture, and can we squeeze it through one cameralink PCI frame grabber card?

I also would love to see what type of cameras they release shortly in their HD range.

Does anybody have an updated list of the best lowcost sensors, I would like to veiw them, their has to be a stand out value sensor out there somewhere? Wonder what Foveon is doing?

Obin Olson · June 2nd, 2004, 11:57 AM

Wayne, seems to me that Micron is doing the best lowcost chips..I have the Silicon Imaging camera and am going to start some tests! foveon is 4fps I think and the fillfactory chips suck ass in image quality the rockwell chips are great but cost alot

Rob Scott · June 2nd, 2004, 12:26 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : Wayne, seems to me that Micron is doing the best lowcost chips..I have the Silicon Imaging camera and am going to start some tests! foveon is 4fps I think and the fillfactory chips suck ass in image quality the rockwell chips are great but cost alot -->>>

Yeah, I'm really disappointed that Foveon hasn't come out with something suitable for HD. Their 10 megapixel (actually 2268 x 1512 x 3 layers) sensor could be perfect if it had a decent frame rate. The diagonal size is 25mm which is getting close to 35mm.

I'm curious -- How much more do the Rockwell/AltaSans chips cost vs. the Micron chips?

Wayne Morellini · June 2nd, 2004, 12:51 PM

That's what Foveon has on their website at the moment, but who knows what might be coming. I'll make some private enquiries.

What is this Altsens (Rockwells??) chip and how does it compare in cost. I still hold to my 80/90% auguement, but not 50%. There must be more manufacturers out there, though I would still like a pro opinion on the perforamnce of all the chips. I'm walking aroud like a sensor with an inkblot on it at the moment, in respect to their true performance.

Steve Nordhauser · June 2nd, 2004, 12:55 PM

Rob,
The chip cost is the tip of the iceberg. The data rate from the Micron is 60Mpix/sec, the Rockwell is 150Mpix/sec. I suspect most people will use the Micron in 8 bit mode, the Rockwell in 12 bit (unpacked so 16 bit) mode. The system costs for the acquistion, wider PCI bus and disk bandwidth will chew up much more than the camera costs.

A person could buy a Rockwell/Altasens based camera and use a 1280x720 window initially to keep the cost down I suppose......

On sensors, I agree with Obin - Micron is the leader right now in low cost, low noise chips. Fill Factory is full frame shutter. It is like saying that a mustang is better than a humvee because it accelerates better. Low noise, high sensitivity is not what Fill Factory does.

Wayne Morellini · June 2nd, 2004, 01:09 PM

Sorry, I am proprietorising cost sensitive issues down the line. There is a miminal cost for a miniminal (or desired) resolution/datarate, that we accept and is why we are willing to go three chip if cheap enough. When it comes to splitting hairs on chip perforamnce/cost, I'd rather go with the one that is much cheaper, or much better, and get much better value either way, just pragmatic.

So Steve, for a cinematic sensor you would chose the Micron that was suggested in the Viper thread, over all others, a week ago? I must say I think my upper limit for a sensor would be $1K single chip (divide by three for three chip).

Still wish I could read those techncial specs properly.

Rob Scott · June 2nd, 2004, 01:10 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : What is this Altsens (Rockwells??) chip and how does it compare in cost. -->>>

http://www.altasens.com/products.html

Aspect ratio - 16x9
Resolution - 1936 x 1086
Size - 2/3"
Up to 60 fps progressive (for the 3560 model)
Depth - 12 bits (Bayer)

It's the chip used in the Kinetta camera (http://www.kinetta.com) I haven't been able to determine the price range yet.

Steve -- Thanks for the info. You're right about the chip cost. What it boils down to me, though, is I really want a 10- or 12-bit 1080p solution that will provide 40+ fps. I'm really trying to determine the cost of an entire system that meets this critera and then decide what direction to go. That's why I was asking about the various frame grabbers and upcoming cameras from your company. Perhaps I should wait 8-16 weeks and see? :-)

Steve Nordhauser · June 2nd, 2004, 01:32 PM

It would be a fine thing to wait 8-12 weeks for an announcement. I'll do it here. You will be the first to know. I don't have exact numbers but the Altasens is something like 20x to 50x the cost of the Micron.

I think there are three groups here:
Low cost, very good quality - the Micron 1280x720 @24-30 (or 60)fps single chip will be fine.

Medium cost, excellent quality - Altasens, single chip

Hey, commercial cameras with recorders are $100K+, so $20K is a great deal - 3 chip, the Altasens.

Almost all of the discussions in Alternative Imaging Methods can be viewed this way. Each requires a different camera and system.

Filip Kovcin · June 2nd, 2004, 01:47 PM

well,

this is extremelly well explained, i mean the three main (and different) needs what Steve Nordhauser just noted here before.

personally - i will start with the cheapest solution and therefore learn (i hope! :)) something - and not spend tons of $$$. especially if there is also solution for slomo.

just a thought.

by the way - Steve, thank you for your help. i suggest you officially for the first DVinfo community medal! :))

filip

Laurence Maher · June 3rd, 2004, 12:25 AM

Hmmmm

Okay, I guess I'm a little confused. For some reason, I thought it was between medium 720p at around 3-5k and high quality at around 10k. Not sure 20k will work, but then if that covers the whole NLE as well, I guess not a bad wrap. If not, can't do 20k for just a camera. but beggars can't be choosers, I guess. Either way, thanks for everything, we love ya steve.

Steve Nordhauser · June 3rd, 2004, 09:29 AM

Laurence,
I was talking system prices to build one system. The first level - low cost, very good quality would be a micron camera, 720p, capture, PCI-32 computer with a two drive serial ATA RAID. Maybe $4K plus recording software.

The second level would be a PCI-X computer with at least a 4 drive RAID. I don't have real prices yet but around $8K-$10K.

The third level involves recording three 150Mpix/sec (300MB/sec for uncompressed raw data) simultaneously. Plus 3x the camera cost of #2 plus a prism. I took a hipshot at $20K. The results should be as good as any commercial HD camera.

Jason Rodriguez · June 3rd, 2004, 10:09 AM

Steve,

So are these real-world cameras that your company is offering right now, or are they cameras that are coming to market?

For instance, the Micron 720p camera or the Altasens 1080p camera, were are those currently in the production/release cycle?

Also is there anywhere we can see moving samples of these chips? Still shots are nice, but they don't tell the whole story, especially when you're wanting to evaluate motion characteristics.

Thanks.

June 2nd, 2004, 12:55 PM	#83
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Rob, The chip cost is the tip of the iceberg. The data rate from the Micron is 60Mpix/sec, the Rockwell is 150Mpix/sec. I suspect most people will use the Micron in 8 bit mode, the Rockwell in 12 bit (unpacked so 16 bit) mode. The system costs for the acquistion, wider PCI bus and disk bandwidth will chew up much more than the camera costs. A person could buy a Rockwell/Altasens based camera and use a 1280x720 window initially to keep the cost down I suppose...... On sensors, I agree with Obin - Micron is the leader right now in low cost, low noise chips. Fill Factory is full frame shutter. It is like saying that a mustang is better than a humvee because it accelerates better. Low noise, high sensitivity is not what Fill Factory does. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

June 2nd, 2004, 01:32 PM	#86
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	It would be a fine thing to wait 8-12 weeks for an announcement. I'll do it here. You will be the first to know. I don't have exact numbers but the Altasens is something like 20x to 50x the cost of the Micron. I think there are three groups here: Low cost, very good quality - the Micron 1280x720 @24-30 (or 60)fps single chip will be fine. Medium cost, excellent quality - Altasens, single chip Hey, commercial cameras with recorders are $100K+, so $20K is a great deal - 3 chip, the Altasens. Almost all of the discussions in Alternative Imaging Methods can be viewed this way. Each requires a different camera and system. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

June 2nd, 2004, 01:47 PM	#87
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	my thougths well, this is extremelly well explained, i mean the three main (and different) needs what Steve Nordhauser just noted here before. personally - i will start with the cheapest solution and therefore learn (i hope! :)) something - and not spend tons of $$$. especially if there is also solution for slomo. just a thought. by the way - Steve, thank you for your help. i suggest you officially for the first DVinfo community medal! :)) filip

June 3rd, 2004, 09:29 AM	#89
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Laurence, I was talking system prices to build one system. The first level - low cost, very good quality would be a micron camera, 720p, capture, PCI-32 computer with a two drive serial ATA RAID. Maybe $4K plus recording software. The second level would be a PCI-X computer with at least a 4 drive RAID. I don't have real prices yet but around $8K-$10K. The third level involves recording three 150Mpix/sec (300MB/sec for uncompressed raw data) simultaneously. Plus 3x the camera cost of #2 plus a prism. I took a hipshot at $20K. The results should be as good as any commercial HD camera. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

June 2nd, 2004, 09:50 AM	#76
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Wayne, First, honestly, most of our applications are industrial and camera link is the standard in non-cinema connectivity. Second, it is very fast and extendable. Cost isn't so bad - our basic bundle with a camera (32 bit frame grabber, 2m cable, power supply and cable and some basic GUI software) is $500. The 64 bit/66MHz frame grabbers start at $1200 but will be dropping soon. -->>> Yes that is why I like the camera link interface, it is a good alternative standard to the very expensive SDIHD, but how expensive is it really (I know that it is limited and that is why I don't personally like it). If we can start up an alternative standard in interfacing (anybody that wants to interface to standard TV industry interfacing can pay the extra fo it, but we don't need it to do work). Most of my suggestions of late piont to an alternative work flow to the industry standard. Now that $500 price cameralink (which I take is if you buy a camera as well), is still $500 more than USB2.0 ($100 I would not even care). So what about my suggestion of multilinking USB2.0, Gigethernet (but wht main board will; do that), SATA RAID/virtual; RAID/Software RAID, or cameralink board on PCI-Express, or AGP, is that possible? I personally have seen a reference to some new consumer HD serial interface that does around 5Gbit/s. Then there is the 10 Gigabit ethernet standard, is that comming to a motherboard chipset anytime soon? Sorry to harp on about it, just thinking of the whole market, top to bottom, would probably be good for industrial applications aswell. Look forward to seeing example footage from your cameras here in the near future. I personally think that single chip true 720 and acceptable 1080 is good, which works along the data rates you mentioned. When these things get blown up big screen true is better unless you are going above 1080. If there is a propper cheap interface/software workflow solution I think there is market for single and 3chip boxs. If you go to the link at the begining of this thread tot he Russian network camera, he has some cheap opensource FPGA compression designs for gigbit erthenet in his cameras. Sorry for this bulk of writing Steve, it is late. Thanks Wayne.

June 2nd, 2004, 10:15 AM	#77
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : 64 bit frame grabbers are available with dual base or full interfaces which doubles that. Data rates are high - the standard clock goes to 66MHz (at 24 bits) but the newer cards can do 85MHz. This means that you could run the AltaSens chip - 12 bit, dual tap 75MHz over to a single frame grabber. Cost isn't so bad - our basic bundle with a camera (32 bit frame grabber, 2m cable, power supply and cable and some basic GUI software) is $500. The 64 bit/66MHz frame grabbers start at $1200 but will be dropping soon. -->>> OK, just for clarification -- will one of your existing frame grabbers handle the full resolution/full frame rate of the AltaSens 3560 -- 60 fps? Which one and how much does it cost? Also ... you mentioned that you have new cameras coming out soon. Can I assume that one of them will be based on the AltaSens 3560 chip? Any idea about price range? Also also ... I notice that some of your frame grabbers come with an SDK. How is the SDK licensed -- can we develop GPL'd software with it? Thanks!

June 2nd, 2004, 10:32 AM	#78
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Steve I need you to call me asap I have your camera and need help! thanks!

June 2nd, 2004, 11:53 AM	#79
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Scott : Also ... you mentioned that you have new cameras coming out soon. Can I assume that one of them will be based on the AltaSens 3560 chip? Any idea about price range? Also also ... I notice that some of your frame grabbers come with an SDK. How is the SDK licensed -- can we develop GPL'd software with it? Thanks! -->>> Yery good pickup Rob. You know that those ITX boards have PCI, I am wondering how many pixels hor/vert to get an effective resolution 1080 picture, and can we squeeze it through one cameralink PCI frame grabber card? I also would love to see what type of cameras they release shortly in their HD range. Does anybody have an updated list of the best lowcost sensors, I would like to veiw them, their has to be a stand out value sensor out there somewhere? Wonder what Foveon is doing?

June 2nd, 2004, 11:57 AM	#80
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Wayne, seems to me that Micron is doing the best lowcost chips..I have the Silicon Imaging camera and am going to start some tests! foveon is 4fps I think and the fillfactory chips suck ass in image quality the rockwell chips are great but cost alot

June 2nd, 2004, 12:26 PM	#81
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : Wayne, seems to me that Micron is doing the best lowcost chips..I have the Silicon Imaging camera and am going to start some tests! foveon is 4fps I think and the fillfactory chips suck ass in image quality the rockwell chips are great but cost alot -->>> Yeah, I'm really disappointed that Foveon hasn't come out with something suitable for HD. Their 10 megapixel (actually 2268 x 1512 x 3 layers) sensor could be perfect if it had a decent frame rate. The diagonal size is 25mm which is getting close to 35mm. I'm curious -- How much more do the Rockwell/AltaSans chips cost vs. the Micron chips?

June 2nd, 2004, 12:51 PM	#82
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	That's what Foveon has on their website at the moment, but who knows what might be coming. I'll make some private enquiries. What is this Altsens (Rockwells??) chip and how does it compare in cost. I still hold to my 80/90% auguement, but not 50%. There must be more manufacturers out there, though I would still like a pro opinion on the perforamnce of all the chips. I'm walking aroud like a sensor with an inkblot on it at the moment, in respect to their true performance.

June 2nd, 2004, 01:09 PM	#84
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Sorry, I am proprietorising cost sensitive issues down the line. There is a miminal cost for a miniminal (or desired) resolution/datarate, that we accept and is why we are willing to go three chip if cheap enough. When it comes to splitting hairs on chip perforamnce/cost, I'd rather go with the one that is much cheaper, or much better, and get much better value either way, just pragmatic. So Steve, for a cinematic sensor you would chose the Micron that was suggested in the Viper thread, over all others, a week ago? I must say I think my upper limit for a sensor would be $1K single chip (divide by three for three chip). Still wish I could read those techncial specs properly.

June 2nd, 2004, 01:10 PM	#85
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : What is this Altsens (Rockwells??) chip and how does it compare in cost. -->>> http://www.altasens.com/products.html Aspect ratio - 16x9 Resolution - 1936 x 1086 Size - 2/3" Up to 60 fps progressive (for the 3560 model) Depth - 12 bits (Bayer) It's the chip used in the Kinetta camera (http://www.kinetta.com) I haven't been able to determine the price range yet. Steve -- Thanks for the info. You're right about the chip cost. What it boils down to me, though, is I really want a 10- or 12-bit 1080p solution that will provide 40+ fps. I'm really trying to determine the cost of an entire system that meets this critera and then decide what direction to go. That's why I was asking about the various frame grabbers and upcoming cameras from your company. Perhaps I should wait 8-16 weeks and see? :-)

June 3rd, 2004, 12:25 AM	#88
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Hmmmm Okay, I guess I'm a little confused. For some reason, I thought it was between medium 720p at around 3-5k and high quality at around 10k. Not sure 20k will work, but then if that covers the whole NLE as well, I guess not a bad wrap. If not, can't do 20k for just a camera. but beggars can't be choosers, I guess. Either way, thanks for everything, we love ya steve.

June 3rd, 2004, 10:09 AM	#90
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Steve, So are these real-world cameras that your company is offering right now, or are they cameras that are coming to market? For instance, the Micron 720p camera or the Altasens 1080p camera, were are those currently in the production/release cycle? Also is there anywhere we can see moving samples of these chips? Still shots are nice, but they don't tell the whole story, especially when you're wanting to evaluate motion characteristics. Thanks.