Home made camera designs?

[Wayne Morellini]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Floyd : Hello all, my question is about The AJA Kona 2 card and Final Cut Pro HD. The AJA website said that the Kona 2 card can convert raw 720*1280 into DVCPRO-HD using HD-SDI. My question is this, is there a way to convert the signal from one of the inexpensive cmos cameras(silicon imaging 1300 for example) into HD-SDI. I know that DVCPRO-HD is not the ideal system for feature film work(8 bit, 960*720 after bayer filter)but i am just a poor filmaker trying to get my film made. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel. Also, is there any way to manipulate the signal before compression(white balance, basic color correction). If this idea is entirely stupid and there is a much better solution please let me know. Any posts that point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

Steve Floyd -->>>

Hi Steve, I'm a bit confused, I might have been missing something. What about installing a HD-SDI card aswell, recording the bayer footage through camera link, and then trancoding and transmitting it by HD-SDI, it should even be able to be done realtime (though I would ask the Rob's when that will be possible).

Thanks

Wayne.

[Rob Scott]

Wayne Morellini wrote:
What about installing a HD-SDI card aswell, recording the bayer footage through camera link, and then trancoding and transmitting it by HD-SDI, it should even be able to be done realtime (though I would ask the Rob's when that will be possible).

I'm sure it's possible, but since I have very little interest in doing it, someone else would have to pick up that part of the project (or donate equipment and $$$ :-).

Steve Floyd: If you're just trying to get your footage into DVCPRO-HD, is it really necessary to go through HD-SDI? I think it may be possible for our "Convert" software to use any QuickTime codec as its final target, meaning that you could get your DVCPRO-HD footage without dealing with HD-SDI at all. Now, the solution we're currently working on will not be real-time and will be a big hard-drive space hog* (though you can delete the raw files after compression DVCPRO-HD if you like).

(Of course, keep in mind that I am not yet an expert in encoding into QuickTime. I hope to be soon.)

* Hogs in space?

[Wayne Morellini]

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that, I was thinking of using two existing third party programs running in the background that take your output then transcoded it, and pass it to a transmitting program. I think it is a obviouse solutiuon that should be out there and doesn't require us to copy it. Who ever wants to spend money on HD_SDI should be able to find something like this. I would think that many HDSDI cards had transmission progams, if not some transcoders that could take one of the formats Rob's program outputs (otherwise somebody undoubtibly does). If it is not included with the card it should only require some technical googling to locate an suitable transcoder, or asking the cards support department might help even more.

[Régine Weinberg]

Hm
a bit sarkastic, have a look at: http://www.dynebolic.org/
it is a live CD you can nest on a pc, open Mosix What does ist do for us ? Run on two PC it will build easy, dump easy a cluster. It has Cinarella just ready to start, Jahshak, Gimp, it is the only LINUX out there for video or streaming music. I've been far too long working for Intel, but only realtime. So we used Sun, embedded and strange hardware but all documents were written with Framemaker or Quark. look to any 200 or more pages Microsoft documentation, never written with Word !!

Will sayCinarell is not bad at all, I do use KNOPPIX, the easy way to get a full Debian not tested, unstable - rocksolid, as rocksolid as my beloved bi-pro SGI Octane from 1999. So Jahshasa is not Combustion but free, Cinarella can do HD even know by the big's in film biz.

As Linux is in set-top boxes, Cellphones, etc at all is GNU the Camear board coul run it as well, as the code from doo google some video for Linux is free, not Cinarell the way would be with Epix to have a Cameralink oot and an Gig Ether in. For me the only doing the job today.

Oh a bit more sorry Ther is DV out and for consumer ther will be DV tape or maybe blueray. Interframe compression but never ever wireless or Gig ether. why.

Me strated music with five, break jump in the recording biz with 16 part time. We did Charles Mingus and much more like ECM in Munich but from a small village in the black forest. MCM gone far ago. It was easy, we bought an old famous mixing desk, tube gear nobody wanted anymore, 1972, and so on it has been a great time.

Today the entry level for live recording is very expensive, and look to http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=34533 it's like all the time with music, no answer only how to mic this, what to take and is X realy better than y. Why writing this, there is a lot of software out, running most on Windows, RME card are fantastic, but Windows is no way to have it on the road, ask the DOD. Army is the reason that somebody as SGI is still alive.

What is my love with film? Well ist's my Eclair modded for S16 with an Acl 2 motor running up to 75 fps. Angenieux Paris f 10-150, 1:2,8 and converted from a russian Kinor F-6 mm wide angel. 1:1.8.
I do use film that pasted the date and know somebody who precesses DIY. I did it with color and Dia all th time DIY. Than I do scan it with a scan unit out af a Pentacon Scan cam on an old huge cutting desk, producing zillions of tiffs. scropping the image and it looks great. It's not cheap, takes lot of disk space and so on. But I do have no Pixel, no bayer no artifacts nothing, it only takes to scan a real a day or even more and has to be dust free. I do have the film allways as a eternal backup, well fire or moisture can eat it away.

To Wayne you had the idea with the 2 CMOS setup on in the place of the penta prism and one in the film plane. So why not use 4 all the setup in some high tech plastic, carbon or so sealed, glued together, most airplanes are "glued" together nowadays. Why so crazy, one Altasens is even not the S16 format The Foveon with the low resolution can group pixels together, thats not bad, he is 3 layer, and four of these would give a real nice DOF could be $$ but ... reolution ? but low light and so on, no bayer 3 Cmos in one chip.

Think of it, on a 35mm camera ther is, ok shutter speed no way to have another setup no gamma no look no no no. Why the hell to have it on our baby, the viewfinder issue is not easy and religion. All the rest is lunatic, go out and look to a S16 or 35mm shooting. That's Film and needs a crew, that's not video, and now we have the force that drives us mad, cost of production. You can do 35mm or better S16 with team of two and even some ambient sound, the rest is post roduction and why change this. A lot of indie, documentation and even drame was shot this way. The price of Kreines cam drives me mad that's a fact. What is the issue with me? Well I do need to adjust speed, to have exposure shutter as wi th an Eclair, Aaton , Arri, toged rid of noisy motor and cumbersum expensive film, but have S16 DOF at least, nicer would be nera 35mm DOF. Relolution could even be 2x blown up in post, why not but no Argus, ground glass or so, as it takes light away and there is never too much light in film

nerci

[Rob Lohman]

Ronald: you seem to like going in a totally different direction, which
is fine, but also quite costly. The reason most stuff is developed
on Windows is the following:

1. most programmers here work in the Windows environment
2. not all cameralink boards (or gigabit ethernet) have drivers for Linux/Unix
3. the goal was to setup a system that could easily be build by someone with a bit of knowledge. Most people in the video industry do NOT have Linux/Unix/Cinelerra experience
4. I have yet to see anyone on this board who uses Cinelerra in a serious fashion (some people are kinda looking at it)

The question is not which can do HD. Sony Vegas (NLE) can do HD
and I'd much rather use that product for a whole bunch of reasons.
The issue with editing is with the higher bitdepths. Normal video
is 8 bits per channel (whether it is RGB or YUV), we are talking
about a 10 or 12 bits signal which I doubt Cinelerra supports
(I couldn't find any sort of specifications for the product).

Personally I don't care if the DoD doesn't want to run Windows,
I do personally. It is pretty easy to have "Windows on the road"
(as you say), people do it all the time with a laptop. Power is no
real concern with good equipment and good batteries.

Ofcourse you are free to develop solutions for Linux or any other
OS as you see fit, Ronald. For now at least our time is focussing
on Windows. I believe Obin was working on a Linux version and
at the moment it is unsure how the Drake camera is working...

[Régine Weinberg]

Thanks a lot and ok laptops are fine for any use, have my 5Megpix still cam conected, voila, but closed and some wifi card, a firewire disk not running very long, They are closed boxes. A small pc in a tin-can with a decend keybord, a spacemouse and a flatsreen, I do have in my car and it's much better as an laptop.
Dualboot Linux, Windows as I can drag each Linux tiff, jpeg or avi on the windows partition voila two worlds and I'm happy.
Using both it's great, beware there is not yet a real Linux virus out, quite each linux disk is set up personally flavoured, no stupid registry and no stupig windows directory. As all is GNU and most is C where is there the problem ? Cinarella is, as I do know 10 bit maybe will be xx next year.

Tell me FILM is not only bit's, same as Music-16 bit 24 bit 96kz or what, can you hear the difference ? Hifi nuts are going tube, 4 watt amps with ideas from 1930, they don't hear this.
An electrostatic headphone can do this http://www.headwize.com/ but does not look so sexy as huge speakers or $$ small ones. it's all psychoaccustic, Film is a bit tricky as the hyman eye is hard to be fooled so it is resolution, DOF, inspiration, light, inspiration, hard work AND sound. If it is Vegas or what I don't care. I dont need tons of 3D animation, im telling a history, a strange one, a love-history, an animal-documentation, what ever, it's allways a love history. If it is xxx bit who cares it has to be projected in cinema format, if it does its okay on DVD, not vice versa.
ronald

[Rob Scott]

Rob Lohman wrote:
...10 or 12 bits signal which I doubt Cinelerra supports

Cinelerra supports 10-bit 4:4:4 uncompressed via QuickTime for Linux.

See this link and scroll (or search) down to "Comparison of the 8 bit and 10 bit YUV codecs."

[Régine Weinberg]

ok
I do like Cinarella , I do like Linux, I do like Windows to dig in the www, Copernic agent pro, I do like to have email on linux, so far no virus, no registry and no stupid disp layout all over the world the same vulnerable windows folder and so on. If windows would not tell you YOU have unused icons may I clean them and in an hassle you hit retun key, and so on, it would be a nice OS but why does it need so much space on a disk. ??

LOL Cinarella is free, it comes with Dynabolic no instalation nothing, the MOSIX can cluster several PC voila you have a render farm indie-style easy, cheapo. The camera is on issue, lighting, and all the stuff needed for film, and even your actors are your friend logistics and catering tranportation etc.

Keep the cost on NLE down, invest in the Film !!

[Wayne Morellini]

Hello,

I posted some links to Cinelerra in times past. I think it will capture 12bit from memory.

I think what Ron has said has merit and canbe done quiet cheaply (as long as you have a cheap SDI camera). If we select and work out one of two known boards and a set of devices, with all the drivers/linux worked out on a disk image, all the user has to do is buy this hardware and restore the image to it. Cheap and simple, if we had done that we would have been up and running ages ago. But the problem is who has a HDSDI dual link camera cheap enough? Still, with a simple capture from Gigethernet in 4:4:4 raw bayer/3 chip modification to Cinerlerra that could have been done to, but as you said who wants to capture from a full editor program.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Ronald: you seem to like going in a totally different direction, which
is fine, but also quite costly. The reason most stuff is developed
on Windows is the following:-->>>

By the sound of Obin's capture problems, it sounds like he's hit the same snag I talked to Rob about near the begining. Don't know how long it will take for his programmers to work it out, the only other solution is too change hardware, probably to a faster system. I'm confident that wecan probably capture 720p bayer to even a 300Mhz system (preferably not PC though), even with compression, now that will blow a few minds, but if Ron has done extensive machine code realtime embedded programming he should be able to do something like that. When you look at it that Meneutos I posted on the other thread might be perfect to do that on the PC. The guy that did that (who is putting in a C library for people that want to port things like Cinerala (ahhg, how do you spell that, why didn't they just call it Cineralla, and go in partnership with Disney). I read a article where the guy that did it was asked about the speed advantages over some other c based OS (Linux or windows maybe). He said somethign about when they replaced certain parts of Linux with machine coade they saw a 40-60% (don't rember) speed increase. So imagine what canbe achieved by a full machine code OS, and machine code capture app, and program by a very skilled programmer that knows how to optimise for every chipset and subsystem in a chipset ;) Now all the capture problems start disappearing as that big processor sudenlly can do 100%+ more.

[Steve Nordhauser]

Ronald:
There is support out there for Linux. I know Epix and Active Silicon have Linux SDKs (I believe the Epix GUI is in beta) and our gigabit ethernet has a Linux SDK.
Gigabit:
The supported platforms for such currently are RedHat 9
(recommended) and SuSE 8.2 (recently added to the list). In fact we do have customers using other linux distributions, but we are limiting support to the 2.4.x kernels, since we still need to create custom drivers. The API for Windows and Linux is actually the same. So any program written to work with our SDK in Windows should work much the same way in
linux.

[Wayne Morellini]

So, are you saying that Rob's capture program could port straight accroos, that's interesting. Thanks.

[Rob Scott]

Wayne Morellini wrote:
So, are you saying that Rob's capture program could port straight across

Well, most of it is portable, but the UI uses DirectX.

[Rob Lohman]

With all due respect to everyone, why does it really matter (at
least at this point in time) what OS is on the camera? It is nice
that Ronald is so (obviously) fond of Linux and I have a bias
towards Windows. It all boils down to two things:

1. the camera and the people who are programming for that

2. the rest of the processing chain

Now the first part (in the case of obscuracam) is at the moment
being done by Rob S. with a bit of support from yours truly and
for now is being developed for Windows because that is what
we can easily work with. In my eyes it does not matter much
which OS is being used at this stage because if all is done the
END USER WILL NEVER SEE IT! Since this is A CAMERA you don't
hook it up to the internet or whatever and therefore you don't
have to worry about things like virusses as well (which Ronald
seems to worry about).

Now the second part consists of the (what we call) "convert"
application (which is going to be opensource) and whatever
anyone wants to do after that (ie, editing). If someone wants
to take the convert application source and port that over to
a Unix version then by all means do so. If they then want to
EDIT this footage with Cinelerra then be my guest. In this PHASE
is where you actually start to work with your footage and I
can very much imagine people working on Windows, Mac OS X
or Linux.

So to get back to the main issue, I'd much rather have a working
camera as soon as possible then trying to work out whether it
should run under Linux or Windows. You can always switch to
another platform (yes, it would involve some work, but not nearly
as much as the initial development process) when the whole
process is working and you have camera's you can actually do
some shooting with.

Ronald: you will definitely see the difference in 10 or 12 bit video
because this will give you far greater dynamic range in your image
(the eye can see far greater dynamic ranges than is currently
possible with 8 bits). It is not comparable to the increase in audio
you mentioned.

Also, just to tie into your "(unused) space issue": the message is
easily deactivated (I don't get that message, nor the message my
drives are running low nor does it have customized menus where
it hides stuff not used, it's all settings) and I don't care if Windows
requires 1 GB or so to install, there is a harddisk anyway.

Now the next question is not to bash or something, but I'm
wondering something: does Linux support things like "standby"
or "hibernation"?

[Wayne Morellini]

I believe latter editions do.

Does the OS matter? If you were talking about other OS's than Linux and Xp then I would say yes, much better performance and reliability. The other factor is that you can use it for other tasks and editing with the right OS. You wanted embedded XP to get the OS off the hard drive yourself previously. We started to save money, and in reality, and along simular theme to our project, Linux with Cineralla offers something significantly cheaper than Windows and Premier etc. But if it is hidden, we don't need Windows or Linux really at all, we could use Toas and get even better perfomance, or a native Machine code OS/or developement system. But at the moment we just need to get it working then worry about it after that. But basically if we restrict hardware chioce to a few good MB, HDD's etc, we don't need Windows OS, byut will have to update everytime choosen MB and HDD go out of production (as OS does not contain hardware abstraction, we do that). Now drivers for Linux, there are a few attempt and even universal driver format project, but you also, Rob S, have one that allows Linux to use standard Windows drivers, and another that allows you to use Direct X on Linux ;)

[Régine Weinberg]

Why should an os do that ?
to start takes time so what comes in, Cameralink or Gig E could be lost, fact is in realtime where I do come from a system is up running all the time
I have just done a post in the Obin thread maybe a bit strange but that's my thinking. worked about 16 years beside ABS on strange thingsnthe non DOD like 5 axis machine control working as fast as a pice of steel can be moved araound and so on. Systems they run 24h and fail if a hardware fail, that's not Windows and not Linux, fun for me is a realtime OS and playing with the Lego brick plus two piggy bords, so it moves the lego cam around and sends pic wireless to the host comouter. the computer compares the pics with his 3d invetury and knows the position of the brick. If someting changes he sends a new map to the brick a bit like cruis missiles do LOL.
So my son 11 years leanrs to do programming

I do like Linux, Dynabolic for instant as it is open, all Debian is open, Gentoo is open, just build what you need, no drivers sitting in memory idling thats not bad Hibernation is for laptops well an application can do this why not in linux should be out in www I'm sure