3 channel 36 bit 1280 X 720 low $ camera - Viper?

Steve Ipp · May 19th, 2004, 04:48 AM

Thank you for the link, Wayne

Obin Olson · May 19th, 2004, 07:12 AM

what is goin gto change computer tech by the end of the year?

Wayne Morellini · May 19th, 2004, 09:25 AM

Moores law, power doubles every 18 months. The VIA chip is a little behind, I don't have their release date map, but I am hoping the 2GHz version might be here by the end of the year ;), and hopefully definitely by a years time.

Rob Belics · May 19th, 2004, 10:56 AM

That's an embedded naked chip not for general purpose use. Or is that what you are wanting?

Wayne Morellini · May 19th, 2004, 12:45 PM

The core tech should also be available in their standard processor line, and integrated Eden itx form factor MB/s. So it should be available to all soon enough.

Laurence Maher · May 20th, 2004, 10:40 AM

Hey Obin,

When you posted:

"you have to have pcix and a P4 2.8ghz atleast for full on HD capture..no handheld will do"

. . . was that a response to my Final Cut Pro idea? Please excuse that I'm not sure pcix means. P4 I assume is Pentium 4. If this was a response to the FCP idea, please be more specific. (I'm assuming that FCP would be okay for straight shooting with little fx work, just maybe some re-contrast for darker shaddows if needed and color timing.

Signed,

The Relative Layman

Wayne Morellini · May 21st, 2004, 04:51 AM

Yes, I am interested too, it also sounds like a reply to my handheld computer come palm corder jest.

PCI comes in a number of high speed versions aswell as the common 32bit 32Mhz version (132MB/s data rate). There is PCI 66Mhz (264Mb/s), PCI 64 bit 66Mhz (512MB/s), one other I can't remember (apart from the embedded formfactor versions, and the PC-Card hybrid version), at arround 1GB/s I think, and PCI Express, Intels new Serial bus that is coming to more and more motherboards soon (I forget the top end speed of latter vesion but more tha enough to handle Ultra HD (32+million pixel screens).

Wayne Morellini · May 21st, 2004, 05:09 AM

I have picked up Linux Format April issue (No:52), with a section on video progams for Linux, whch I will hopefully be reading over the next couple of days. It should be just ready to go off your shelves in the States. www.sourceforge.com is also a good place to search for these freeware editors. I have also relocated some of the cheap coprocessing tech that I mentioned (took another 20-40 hours).

If there is a good freeware editor for Linux, there maybe a free Windows version, and these people might possibly get interested in supporting custom formats for new alternative HD cameras, like we are hoping for. Free capture and edting software could save some of us $1K-2K.

The advantages of a true, completely, loosless codec, is that it is easiest to add editing support for, as all decompressed footage can be edited raw, and recomrpessed, as many times as you like without generational degregaion.

Now that wavelet editor that Silicon Imaging is supporting on it' s site, apparently supports true loosless compression (though I am not completely clear on this yet). They are trying to get it to be some sort of standard, and the lossy comrpession it supports is quiet good. So it appraently will do Lossless, and good lossy in one package, so we could get the best of both worlds.

http://www.siliconimaging.com/SPIHT.htm#Lossless.

About loosless, I also include key framed losssles in my support, as long as it allows us to edit reproduced raw proficently.

Rob Scott · May 21st, 2004, 07:22 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini :
If there is a good freeware editor for Linux, -->>>

There is a free/open-source editor called Cinelerra for Linux.

I believe it supports 10-bit video using an uncompressed QuickTime file format. It also supports multi-channel audio (surround sound).

http://www.heroinewarrior.com/index.php3

http://cvs.cinelerra.org/

<<<-- The advantages of a true, completely, loosless codec, -->>>

HuffYUV yields about 2:1 compression in my experience, but it's not wavelet-based. I believe it is limited to 4:2:2 8-bit; however, since the source code is available it may be possible to develop a 10-bit and/or 4:4:4 version.

http://www.avisynth.org/index.php?page=HuffYUV

http://neuron2.net/www.math.berkeley.edu/benrg/huffyuv.html

Obin Olson · May 21st, 2004, 08:58 AM

i think all we need is an app like after effects / combustion / digitalfusion for COLOR work and then we can just output to SD at 4:2:2 or whatever and do our editing on a SD based system like FCP or Premiere pro or AVID...no need in my mind to edit HD 4:4:4 at all UNLESS it is for FILM work...I don't work with film I work with VIDEO and all I want is a way out of dv dvcpro and compressed HD for color and greenscreen work..after that give me 4:2:2 SD allday long ;)

Wayne Morellini · May 21st, 2004, 09:38 AM

Yeah, there it is pn page 53 (it also mentions Broadcast2000). The others mentioned , from my scan are:

Cinlera is reccomended as having "..power functions to take your videos to the next level.".

Unfortunately they don't give links to them all:

Kino "to start" with

Avidernux "quick modifications"

Main actor "for ... ease-of-use":
www.mainconcept.com

It will take time to research them though, anybody want to do it, I'm researching a couple of othr issues at the moment?

Anout the SD, I think we are all intrested in film/HD work here. But I have a recommendation, I have heard of a hidden secret port on the JVC GY-500/5000. I don't remember wherever it was supposed to give uncomrpessed video off the head or just 4:2:2 or 4:4:4?? video, but it does deliver superior video. I suggest the Juan Pana DVX100 project though.

Thanks

Wayne.

Rob Scott · May 21st, 2004, 09:47 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : Kino "to start" with -->>>

As I recall, Kino is DV-only. I haven't tried using it.

http://kino.schirmacher.de/

Here's some detail on the capabilities of Cinelerra:

http://www.lmahd.com/cinelerra.html

You might take it with a grain of salt, since it's from a company that bundles the software with high-performance Linux software.

Wayne Morellini · May 21st, 2004, 11:07 AM

Well, I have gone to the site and found links to most of the other editors (nice of them) and this Nab Tribute:

http://enews.primediabusiness.com/enews/videosystems/bob_turners_the_cut/current#cinelerra

Yes, HD NLE, HDTV 6 channel sound, and true 24p (plus render farm etc etc), AND IT'S SO SMALL, AROUND 11 mb. Maybe these people would like to make a seperate capture backend for the Sumix camera :) with some pro colour/lighting effects for Windows and Linux (have to read this thing). But alas, no present Windows version :(. Maybe we can put together 20 of those VIA nano-itx 1GHZ MB, for a portable render farm with simular power consumption as our present systems ;) .

From the site:
------------------------------
"There are two types of moviegoers: producers who create new content, going back over their content at future points for further refinement, and consumers who want to acquire the content and watch it. Cinelerra is not intended for consumers. Cinelerra has many features for uncompressed content, high resolution processing, and compositing, with very few shortcuts. Producers need these features because of the need to retouch many generations of footage with alterations to the format, which makes Cinelerra very complex. There are many more standard tools for consumers like MainActor, Kino, or Moxy, which you should consider before using Cinelerra."
--------------------------

http://www.virtualdub.org/

Mainconcept has a DVCpro codec, and the MainConcept MPEG Pro plugin for Premier PRO will allow editing of HD10 footage. Present version of maainactor does not mention HD on it's page either.

Rob Scott · May 21st, 2004, 12:17 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne http://www.virtualdub.org/ -->>>

VirtualDub is an excellent video/audio processing utility, good for things like filtering, deinterlacing, smoothing, re-compressing, etc.

I use it to smooth/deinterlace video from my cheap DV camcorder to remove interlacing artifacts. There are some excellent plugins, including several "smart" deinterlacers that do a good job of detecting motion -- not just blurring two fields together (or removing one field entirely).

It can also remove 3:2 pulldown and convert between frame rates.

It is not a full NLE, however, and does not have color-correction features. It's also limited to 8-bit video (per channel).

----------------

You also might check out Jahshaka ...
http://www.jahshaka.com/

It's still under heavy development, but appears to be similar to After Effects. I don't know if it will support 10-bit video and/or color correction.

Supposedly, future plans include NLE features.

Wayne Morellini · May 21st, 2004, 02:11 PM

Understood, it was just an interesting editing (processing) technology.

May 19th, 2004, 04:48 AM	#61
Steve Ipp Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Taipei, Taiwan Posts: 49	Thank you for the link, Wayne

May 19th, 2004, 07:12 AM	#62
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	what is goin gto change computer tech by the end of the year?

May 19th, 2004, 09:25 AM	#63
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Moores law, power doubles every 18 months. The VIA chip is a little behind, I don't have their release date map, but I am hoping the 2GHz version might be here by the end of the year ;), and hopefully definitely by a years time.

May 19th, 2004, 10:56 AM	#64
Rob Belics Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 581	That's an embedded naked chip not for general purpose use. Or is that what you are wanting?

May 19th, 2004, 12:45 PM	#65
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	The core tech should also be available in their standard processor line, and integrated Eden itx form factor MB/s. So it should be available to all soon enough.

May 20th, 2004, 10:40 AM	#66
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Hey Obin, When you posted: "you have to have pcix and a P4 2.8ghz atleast for full on HD capture..no handheld will do" . . . was that a response to my Final Cut Pro idea? Please excuse that I'm not sure pcix means. P4 I assume is Pentium 4. If this was a response to the FCP idea, please be more specific. (I'm assuming that FCP would be okay for straight shooting with little fx work, just maybe some re-contrast for darker shaddows if needed and color timing. Signed, The Relative Layman

May 21st, 2004, 04:51 AM	#67
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yes, I am interested too, it also sounds like a reply to my handheld computer come palm corder jest. PCI comes in a number of high speed versions aswell as the common 32bit 32Mhz version (132MB/s data rate). There is PCI 66Mhz (264Mb/s), PCI 64 bit 66Mhz (512MB/s), one other I can't remember (apart from the embedded formfactor versions, and the PC-Card hybrid version), at arround 1GB/s I think, and PCI Express, Intels new Serial bus that is coming to more and more motherboards soon (I forget the top end speed of latter vesion but more tha enough to handle Ultra HD (32+million pixel screens).

May 21st, 2004, 05:09 AM	#68
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I have picked up Linux Format April issue (No:52), with a section on video progams for Linux, whch I will hopefully be reading over the next couple of days. It should be just ready to go off your shelves in the States. www.sourceforge.com is also a good place to search for these freeware editors. I have also relocated some of the cheap coprocessing tech that I mentioned (took another 20-40 hours). If there is a good freeware editor for Linux, there maybe a free Windows version, and these people might possibly get interested in supporting custom formats for new alternative HD cameras, like we are hoping for. Free capture and edting software could save some of us $1K-2K. The advantages of a true, completely, loosless codec, is that it is easiest to add editing support for, as all decompressed footage can be edited raw, and recomrpessed, as many times as you like without generational degregaion. Now that wavelet editor that Silicon Imaging is supporting on it' s site, apparently supports true loosless compression (though I am not completely clear on this yet). They are trying to get it to be some sort of standard, and the lossy comrpession it supports is quiet good. So it appraently will do Lossless, and good lossy in one package, so we could get the best of both worlds. http://www.siliconimaging.com/SPIHT.htm#Lossless. About loosless, I also include key framed losssles in my support, as long as it allows us to edit reproduced raw proficently.

May 21st, 2004, 07:22 AM	#69
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : If there is a good freeware editor for Linux, -->>> There is a free/open-source editor called Cinelerra for Linux. I believe it supports 10-bit video using an uncompressed QuickTime file format. It also supports multi-channel audio (surround sound). http://www.heroinewarrior.com/index.php3 http://cvs.cinelerra.org/ <<<-- The advantages of a true, completely, loosless codec, -->>> HuffYUV yields about 2:1 compression in my experience, but it's not wavelet-based. I believe it is limited to 4:2:2 8-bit; however, since the source code is available it may be possible to develop a 10-bit and/or 4:4:4 version. http://www.avisynth.org/index.php?page=HuffYUV http://neuron2.net/www.math.berkeley.edu/benrg/huffyuv.html

May 21st, 2004, 08:58 AM	#70
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	i think all we need is an app like after effects / combustion / digitalfusion for COLOR work and then we can just output to SD at 4:2:2 or whatever and do our editing on a SD based system like FCP or Premiere pro or AVID...no need in my mind to edit HD 4:4:4 at all UNLESS it is for FILM work...I don't work with film I work with VIDEO and all I want is a way out of dv dvcpro and compressed HD for color and greenscreen work..after that give me 4:2:2 SD allday long ;)

May 21st, 2004, 09:38 AM	#71
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yeah, there it is pn page 53 (it also mentions Broadcast2000). The others mentioned , from my scan are: Cinlera is reccomended as having "..power functions to take your videos to the next level.". Unfortunately they don't give links to them all: Kino "to start" with Avidernux "quick modifications" Main actor "for ... ease-of-use": www.mainconcept.com It will take time to research them though, anybody want to do it, I'm researching a couple of othr issues at the moment? Anout the SD, I think we are all intrested in film/HD work here. But I have a recommendation, I have heard of a hidden secret port on the JVC GY-500/5000. I don't remember wherever it was supposed to give uncomrpessed video off the head or just 4:2:2 or 4:4:4?? video, but it does deliver superior video. I suggest the Juan Pana DVX100 project though. Thanks Wayne.

May 21st, 2004, 09:47 AM	#72
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : Kino "to start" with -->>> As I recall, Kino is DV-only. I haven't tried using it. http://kino.schirmacher.de/ Here's some detail on the capabilities of Cinelerra: http://www.lmahd.com/cinelerra.html You might take it with a grain of salt, since it's from a company that bundles the software with high-performance Linux software.

May 21st, 2004, 11:07 AM	#73
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Well, I have gone to the site and found links to most of the other editors (nice of them) and this Nab Tribute: http://enews.primediabusiness.com/enews/videosystems/bob_turners_the_cut/current#cinelerra Yes, HD NLE, HDTV 6 channel sound, and true 24p (plus render farm etc etc), AND IT'S SO SMALL, AROUND 11 mb. Maybe these people would like to make a seperate capture backend for the Sumix camera :) with some pro colour/lighting effects for Windows and Linux (have to read this thing). But alas, no present Windows version :(. Maybe we can put together 20 of those VIA nano-itx 1GHZ MB, for a portable render farm with simular power consumption as our present systems ;) . From the site: ------------------------------ "There are two types of moviegoers: producers who create new content, going back over their content at future points for further refinement, and consumers who want to acquire the content and watch it. Cinelerra is not intended for consumers. Cinelerra has many features for uncompressed content, high resolution processing, and compositing, with very few shortcuts. Producers need these features because of the need to retouch many generations of footage with alterations to the format, which makes Cinelerra very complex. There are many more standard tools for consumers like MainActor, Kino, or Moxy, which you should consider before using Cinelerra." -------------------------- http://www.virtualdub.org/ Mainconcept has a DVCpro codec, and the MainConcept MPEG Pro plugin for Premier PRO will allow editing of HD10 footage. Present version of maainactor does not mention HD on it's page either.

May 21st, 2004, 12:17 PM	#74
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne http://www.virtualdub.org/ -->>> VirtualDub is an excellent video/audio processing utility, good for things like filtering, deinterlacing, smoothing, re-compressing, etc. I use it to smooth/deinterlace video from my cheap DV camcorder to remove interlacing artifacts. There are some excellent plugins, including several "smart" deinterlacers that do a good job of detecting motion -- not just blurring two fields together (or removing one field entirely). It can also remove 3:2 pulldown and convert between frame rates. It is not a full NLE, however, and does not have color-correction features. It's also limited to 8-bit video (per channel). ---------------- You also might check out Jahshaka ... http://www.jahshaka.com/ It's still under heavy development, but appears to be similar to After Effects. I don't know if it will support 10-bit video and/or color correction. Supposedly, future plans include NLE features.

May 21st, 2004, 02:11 PM	#75
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Understood, it was just an interesting editing (processing) technology.