3 channel 36 bit 1280 X 720 low $ camera - Viper?

[Steve Ipp]

Hey Obin,
I saw siliconimaging on the web; they've got pretty nice stuff to offer. I am not sure about their current prices, but a year ago I had to back up for the money considerations.
I just got back from Taipei, - bought a PCI USB 2 card for a web cam that has 1.3 MP CMOS on it, - not sure whether or not it does 30 fps at full resolution, but it definetely outputs this many at 640 X 480.
here it is. I paid about 65 US$ for it :)
http://asiamajor.com.tw

[Wayne Morellini]

Definitely impressive, they definetly seem to dliver some interesting products. I imagine that Sumix can do the same, just to keep up with the market, but at the quality that we need. That lens picture, is that taken with the camera, the colours look a little over satuated (but simular to what film normally does in post), dark areas squashed, and latitude seems down a bit.

Steve, the cam does look interesting, show us what you get. It is cheaper, but I imagine you really are getting what you pay for, the better filter and better chips of that resolution would cost a fair bit more.

About the filter (for a possible single chip model). Would a complementary like scheeme let in more light than a primary filter scheeme?

I went through my archive night before last, and spent last night writing a few things up that might help. If anybody knows of more suitable products let us know:

I don't want to side track the issue too much, but I think we should also consider storage issues. If we do 5:1 filming (or worse 30:1) we have to store it somehow. Thats around 239GB per hour, so we are talking about $100 * 5, or even 30, of hardisks to backup, at the moment (looseless compression, divide by 3 or so). Even blueray disks are going to be a pain to back up a production. So the cheapest backup will most likely still be a tape mechanism, does anybody know of a cheap one? Does anybody know of any more techs? The backup technologies they use for computer servers might be a good place to look for cheap technology.


Storage:

Holographic Disk
http://www.eetimes.com/at/news/OEG20020328S0018
Nab 02 announcement "At NAB, we will introduce the industry to the kind
of low-cost, long-life, high-capacity, ultra-reliable removable medium for which they've been waiting years."

I think Nipon, Nikon, or NTT, developed holographic film, around a
simular time, I had a New Scientist with it in.

A 100GB disk based on exisiting CD technology (In research, and I don't
know if there will be a recordable version (the Chineese should use
this for there new DVD standard).
http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20020524S0063

An old article at this address:
www.3dhardware.net/features/dvdead

Is no longer there (1998-1999), but mentioned a 3D storage technology on the brink of comercialisation. FMD-ROM bt C3D (Constellation 3D)
with 10 layers and 140GB (also write once). They actual had a small clear card tech as well. I think there was a number of other such techs, one of these are part owned by Bill G (he is a busy boy in the background), but I lack the docs on them Most of the other stuff I have is just a HD/Flash replacements.

Problem with most of these sorts of things is that somebody announces them, and they will be avialble in a year or two's time (maybe), and dissapear (politics or failure) or turn up several years latter.

Mainboards and small computers:
If you go to www.via.com.tw and look around at their ITX motherboards, if you look at appliances using their mainboards, there are a number of small book computers etc. These are the lowest powered desktop mass market mainboards available (also portbale use). There are smaller mainboards but these are ussually specialist devices for the engineering sector (controllers) and cost 4 to 10 times more.

Very Small computers and mainboards
http://www.saintsong.com.tw/

http://www.norhtec.com/products/index.html
Specialist audio manufacturer, with small computers (for those interested in the audio side). The guy is an audio engineer. They seem to have dropped allt he audio stuff from their site.

Or any suitable cube case.

A throw in:

www.zfmicro.com

Battery:

I wantted to use a fuel cell battery (6* battery life), but it looks like they are still too far behiind to fit in a 51/4inch drive bay (pluss, something goes wrong you get soaked in ethanol and burn seriously, or you can sufficate from oxygen depletion in confined places).

Compression codecs:

Loosless compression and one wavelet. The site has audio, capture, and editing software (but I have not checked to see if any of it is non consumer grade multimedia).

http://www.divx-digest.com/software/index2.html#codecs

http://www.divx-digest.com/software/index3.html#encoding_conv

http://www.alparysoft.com/prod/compression/index.php

Supposed to have good compression (2:1-6:1, I think):

http://www.alparysoft.com/prod/compression/compress-compare.php

The fastest loss-less compresion (38 mbytes a second on a 416Mhz Celeron, HD at 850Mhz+??):
http://www.avisynth.org/index.php?page=HuffYUV


Others:

Mlllki Super Compressor (file compressor, very good):
http://www.miliki.net/index.html
http://www.bytesector.com/data/bs-article.asp?ID=147&ct=Latest%20Resources
Check out the benchmark results.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/site/techsupport.htm

http://www.mindbend.ro/Product_MindVid.htm

http://www.bitjazz.com/

A heap of looseless compression stuff, and HD be aware that visually lossless comrpession will reduce image quality needed for some advanced forms of image processing, like upscaling:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/capturingforhd.aspx

http://www.codec-download.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=12

http://www.wordtally.com/codec.htm

Jpeg2000 (Wavelet):

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010511S0029

http://www.alparysoft.com/prod/jpeg2000.php

Wavelet:
http://rududu.ifrance.com/rududu/

Audio loosless codec comparison:

http://members.home.nl/w.speek/comparison.htm

Well I have information on diffusers in my records that might be usefull for the lense adaptors (I had done research on veiwing screens a while back).

[Obin Olson]

awesome stuff wayne....what form of compression is workable with editing systems I think is the BIG question..for now I will be happy with the setup I am building because we do ALOT of very shortform work 900frames to be exact..so storage will be less of an issue then someone doing feature work

[Laurence Maher]

I'm definitely interested in this, and will definitely buy.

This is great!

Here's the specs I'd want.



MOST WANTED:



3 chips, each 2/3" CMOS with true 16:9 imaging capability on the chip so we don't need anamorphic lenses.

I'd like the lowest compression (uncompressed if possible) that allows a true 24p, and the ability to overcrank.

I don't care much for undercranking, so I don't mind leaving that out.

I'd prefer a mount that allows me to use 35 mm SLR lenses.

I would VERY MUCH PREFER an on-camera viewing system of some kind, for it would make production much more convenient. Just a small screen or eyepiece for frame reference is all I need.

Minimum of 4:2:2 color separation

Minimum bit rate of 100 Mbs




HOPEFUL ADDITIONS (NOT AS IMPORTANT):



2 video signal outputs? One for uncompressed signal and one for compression recording ability straight to a laptop? (If only one I guess I'd go for the least compression that went to a laptop)

Have you guys considered recording straight to an attachable Hard Drive?

Some form of sound recording, even if it is poor, just so there will be some reference to sync sound with.

For storage, I would need some software that could record to a computer/hard drive. Someone mentioned that Boxx technologies makes something that can record a nearly compressionless data stream. If they do, that's my vote.



ANY WAY YOU LOOK AT IT, I WILL BUY THIS CAMERA!!!

[Laurence Maher]

This is great!

Here's the specs I'd want.



MOST WANTED:



3 chips, each 2/3" CMOS with true 16:9 imaging capability on the chip so we don't need anamorphic lenses.

I'd like the lowest compression (uncompressed if possible) that allows a true 24p, and the ability to overcrank.

I don't care much for undercranking, so I don't mind leaving that out.

I'd prefer a mount that allows me to use 35 mm SLR lenses.

I would VERY MUCH PREFER an on-camera viewing system of some kind, for it would make production much more convenient. Just a small screen or eyepiece for frame reference is all I need.

Minimum of 4:2:2 color separation

Minimum bit rate of 100 Mbs




HOPEFUL ADDITIONS (NOT AS IMPORTANT):



2 video signal outputs? One for uncompressed signal and one for compression recording ability straight to a laptop? (If only one I guess I'd go for the least compression that went to a laptop)

Some form of on-board recording mechanism? I prefer a camera that has both a non-comprssion output and an on-board recording mechanism of some kind, even if the onboard is compressed and has a lower bit rate. For on-board, 100 Mbs 4:2:2 would be fine. Have you guys considered recording straight to an attachable Hard Drive?

Some form of sound recording, even if it is poor, just so there will be some reference to sync sound with.



ANY WAY YOU LOOK AT IT, I WILL BUY THIS CAMERA!!!

[Wayne Morellini]

Well I was just looking through some of the Slicon Imaging pages, and think that the their sensors (like 12bit 3.2Mp) defintely are worth looking at for the camera (but we have to find out real life perfoamcne characteristis first, the fooage I've seen doesn't do anything for me yet, but great for a consuemr grade camera, hint, hint).

BUT LOOK AT THIS:
(Visually Loosless compression warning again, that is simular to what Mpeg and MP3 claim(chuck away the bits your not going to miss, but you do, especially when you have to process it, previouse post):

http://www.siliconimaging.com/SPIHT.htm#Lossless.

I must say beautifal, I have been waiting for wavelet to get this good for a while, I definitely can even see the difference, but with compression like this we can afford to 8Mp at low comrpession ratios (less than 20:1, only a stabb in the dark here).

Had a look at some of the specifications of the cameras, 2 lux at F1, 66db Dynamic Range, 67.7db SNR 4* gain for the 3.2Mp camera (that's just the ones I can read for the moment), not the best figures (the F! lesne would cost a bit), I expect a bit of niose with gain. I haven't looked properlly, but I think the chips closer to HD have much better figures. The Smal hi-res sensor had 120db Dynamic range, and just fantastic for difficult lighting situations. Now if Foveon could do an X3 chip with the performance of the Smal sensor, and the speed of the Silicon Imaging sensor, we would be set. By the way, who manufactures the sensors for them. Well I'll have to look at the rest of them after I get some rest.

They also talk about a number of interfaces we could consider using (industry standard low cost camera link, usb2.0, ehternet, ad probaly Firewaire somewhere in there). They also calim 150MB/s sustained serial ATA?? (which I, and others here, would think was impossible, maybe there is a special mutihead/platter drive that can do it).

Now the question on what codec to use with editors, if it's free and good editor I like it. Now some of the lossless codecs list support for editors. I think if you look at the microsoft mediaplayer hd link in the last post you will get some info. I think the Black Magic might be one, and the alparysoft is another. The comrpession routine above might also be good, if it can be true looseless at 3+:1. We can choose the level of compression we use.

( http://www.blackmagic-design.com/site/techsupport.htm )
( http://www.alparysoft.com/prod/compression/index.php )
( http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/capturingforhd.aspx )

Now I must retire for a while, spending this many hours on stuff like this is not fun. So guys feel free to discuss these things and decide.

By the way, definetly a 4:4:4 mode for keying special effects (like sci-fi).

Thanks

Wayne.

[Steve Ipp]

Wayne, thank you for your time and support. I just got the camera yesterday, I'm going to install USB 2 PCI card now to check out the quality of monochrome output. I'll upload sample frames to my site with a reference here.

[Richard Mellor]

Hi everyone -

I think we are the future of image acquisition! The new modular camera will allow us the lenses of our choice, the chips of our choice (CCD, CMOS), raw capture, and eventual output to the codec of our choice.

All this with repair and upgrade similar to a PC.

This is a link to what that camera will look like: http://www.kinetta.com/home.php.

[Wayne Morellini]

That HD SDI would probably be very expensive, as apart from the cost of the HDSDI board for the mini computer (which may not have a free PCI slot) all the equipment using HDSDI will be very very expensive.

Those interfaces suggested on the Silicon Imaging site are probably the way to go (I don't think that HDSDI can keep up, I think it might be limited to match the speed of compressed HD, and wont do raw images, there is a more expensive technology that does that).

I have had a look at that camcorderinfo site, and it looks like that is the suggestion of virtually one or two people (not a terribly great interest there). Can we list out links to the recommended pc hardware,capture, editing software and the costs, I supposed there is room for people to choose Boxx, but I need something cheaper and smaller, preferably 4:4:4 and lossless (not near lossless, the price difference will not be too much, except for the extra HD space).

Here is a minature handheld PC gaming system (with embedded Windows XP) example runing at around 500Mhz. Via can go as high as 1.2Ghz in a design like this (higher in the future), anybody fancy a HD handheld ;):

http://www.ministrymobile.com/MoMAweb-technology.html

By the way there is another thread that has started looking at a film camera adaption, a home made camera thread, and the Jaun thread, they have links to many designs and sensors.

Now somebody mentioned getting a camera and trialing it, how is that going?

[Laurence Maher]

Wayne, if you have better suggestions that give us compressionless HD video for cheaper, by all means do what you need to to make them a reality for us. Most of what I know of this techno-subject (creating a cam from scratch), I have learned from here in the last few days.

[Wayne Morellini]

Look at the previouse posts and links, do research, discuss the options with everybody and decide. Sumix wants opinions and suggestions, otherwise they will do what they think might be best, and it might not turn out exactly how we like. We have laid down options (and there needs to be further research and discussion) for the calcualtions on processing power, costs, and hardware needs to be made, and options selected. There are likely upto 4 times more chioces than those mentioned, and some of them are going to be as much as 100% better. www.google.com is a good starting place, and picking up more technical terms along the way. All this stuff has to be done, preplanning helps, when you get that baby it will want the right setup ready to be attached to it, otherwise things can get painfull. Well it's 4:37am.

[Laurence Maher]

Does anybody know about this new Final Cut Pro HD? It claims 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed 1080p at 90-160 MBps via PCI transport . . . and from SOFTWARE alone (No additional hardware)?

I'm not sure I buy this. I will say that if it does what it claims, it would limit the 4:4:4 idea, but sure gives us enough for Hollywood level acquisition.

Somebody tell me what I'm missing here:

http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/

[Obin Olson]

you have to have pcix and a P4 2.8ghz atleast for full on HD capture..no handheld will do

[Wayne Morellini]

It was abit of a joke ;) You should be able to capture HD on much less than a 2.8, there is 2Ghz version of the via technology to come out.

[Wayne Morellini]

Here is the new "2GHZ and above" VIA processor, based on.o9micron IBM tech. At the moment it mentions the 1Ghz version. I have only scanned it, but they make it sound like a Athlon/P4 killer, of course well see how it goes, ohh yes, and I think I have just found my new MB with something like this (but when the 2 Ghz version).

http://www.via.com.tw/en/Digital%20Library/PR040518EPF.jsp

We must remember that while present computer tech might not be ideal, it might be by the end of the year, or this time next year.