3 channel 36 bit 1280 X 720 low $ camera - Viper?

Forrest Schultz · March 2nd, 2006, 04:23 PM

keep up the work oscar, i am very interested in this camera also. let us know what he says . a question, how do you put a mirror or glass between the lens and adapter, does it have to move out of the way before we start recording the image? how do film camera viewfinders work? thanks . cuz, i would also need a view finder if i was going to use this camera.

Oscar Spierenburg · March 2nd, 2006, 06:51 PM

I didn't got a reply yet, but to answer your question..this is what Dan wrote(sadly, he's still suspended - he had some clever idea's)
<<<<mount a MC filter (that will act as a mirror) at 45 deg (closest to the GG) and a tiny CMOS surveillance type on top to capture the image of the GG (reflected in the filter)and display it on a monitor (of your choice) You can mount the CMOS so you see it up right. They (CMOS) do not need A LOT OF LIGHT to give you an image (remember, it "steals" the image of the reflection in the filter) they are cheap (less than $20) and your camcorder will not suffer any amount of light loss or image degradation.
(this is kind of a tiny prompter or videoassist for film cameras)>>>>

Of course it means you have to use a 35mm adapter for this, I hope my wax glass gives high enough resolution (that's not the right word) because it is small and doesn't loose much light.

By the way, have you noticed at the bottom of the price info on the Elphel 333 model the note on a free or discount camera if you're doing an interesting project?
Maybe we'll get a discount if some people here (including me) would order together and present it as a project...which it would be unless we don't share our findings here of course...just a thought.

Forrest Schultz · March 2nd, 2006, 07:01 PM

yah i know what you mean, i saw that note a while back, and so i did email him with my lengthy presentation of what i planned to do with his camera. (the whole 35mm adapter and everrthing) he wrote back and it seemed as almost i was going to get the camera at free/discount. but he said he needed to talk it over with his friends before he could make any decisions. i said, "sounds good, lemme know what happens" and he said he will. but thats the last i heard from Aundrey. perhaps he didnt like it and he was just trying to be nice. i hope he doesnt just blow me off. but what can i do, i gave it my best. but yah, perhaps as a team, we can convice him. thanks

Daniel Rudd · March 2nd, 2006, 08:20 PM

If you go for a group discount. I might be in.
Thanks for your work on this guys.

Les Dit · March 3rd, 2006, 05:43 AM

Oscar,
Do any of these usb cmos cameras have the ability to take a frame when an external trigger tells it to ?
I am searching for one that I can sync to a flashing light, and I can provide a TTL signal for the 'take a frame now' signal.

I can write a c program to control it, if needed, but the frame has to happen pretty much right when the trigger happens. The strobe is about 30 ms light duration. Any ideas ?
Thanks!
-Les

Oscar Spierenburg · March 3rd, 2006, 10:13 AM

Les, sorry but I don't know enough about this to answer that. Have you checked the forum on the Elphel site? (I posted the link some posts back)

I got a reply from the Belgian guy. It's a very nice guy and he's interested in this project. He says:
<<I can record 18minute long files (2gb file limit). >>
<<The problem I have is I have constantly moving complex image & if the image becomes very complex (under trees in a sunny forest) the mjpeg becomes bigger & thus you start to drop frames if you’re already pushing the limit of your laptops ability to move the data to the hard drive.>>

You should know that he is filming on the road from a car, so that is really the worst case compared to most indoor scenes most of us would probably need to film.
He offered to meet him and see how the camera would do on my 1.5Ghz laptop. I hope I can find a way to do that, because he lives on the other end of Belgium(but he also says he's in Holland soon for work).

About a group discount proposal to Elphel...it's not a bad idea. We have to keep it in mind..

Wayne Morellini · March 3rd, 2006, 09:30 PM

Elphel has indicated to me special deals for people the want to develop the camera. So if anybody here would like to develop a video capture front end, and/or disk recording solution, than he may, hopefully, help.

Now for some news, there is a new PDA like PC platform coming, and prices will be around that of a cheap laptop, but it gives a good handheld small form-factor computer and monitor. Maybe as a good recording platform (as long as you can connect something to record the ?100Mb/s stream. As long as you know what your doing, but this is not so demanding as the Raw cinema cameras as 100Mb/s is only a fraction of what they were doing. You might even consider a PDA of some sort.

http://www.origamiproject.com

The good news is that flash card memory devices are quiet low, so in theory faster versions (that can sustain 100Mb/s) in USB2 or Flash variations (they usually are the cheapest) of 8GB might be possible.

Just remember with the 333 camera, it's advantage is Ogg, but nowhere have I seen, or been told exactly what bit rate it can use in the Ethernet stream, what compression rate, or how it particularly performs in relation to Mpeg2. I have viewed the video clips under magnification, and it does worry me, it would be good to get these answers from Elphel first.

The only other consideration is work flow! Capture edit effects, trans-code to finale, how is it goign to happen. Maybe one of the Linux editor/capture applications like Cinelerra (used in the movie industry) already does it, but I have seen no information.

Re-edit: Sorry for the repeat I only just saw the posts on the free Elphel stuff on the previous page.

Wayne Morellini · March 3rd, 2006, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Dit

Oscar,
Do any of these usb cmos cameras have the ability to take a frame when an external trigger tells it to ?
I am searching for one that I can sync to a flashing light, and I can provide a TTL signal for the 'take a frame now' signal.

Les, there has been cameras around for flash/strobe photography for years, i am sure their are a number, I even think that bayer VGA camera I posted before might have some such synchronisation feature on it that might help.

I did find a cheaper camera than the Elphel, "artray" is there name, but there is no compression etc that Elphel offers, and I don't know if the chips are of high enough quality compared to the mid quality ones used for the Elphel. Maybe it worth going through there site to see if any of the models support it.

Les Dit · March 3rd, 2006, 11:01 PM

Thanks Wayne,
I only need about 1.3 megapixels for this camera. It just has to support some kind of trigger mechanism.

Wayne Morellini · March 3rd, 2006, 11:23 PM

Maybe the Sync signal can be used as a trigger on different cameras?

Les Dit · March 4th, 2006, 12:04 AM

The artray cameras do support external trigger, that's good. But where can I get one, and for how much ? I see they sell in Australia ?
I hate web sites that make it hard to *buy* the damned product they are trying to sell!!!!
-Les

Wayne Morellini · March 4th, 2006, 12:14 AM

They have a website in Japan, Taiwan, or Hong Kong, that's where you buy order the Australian ones from.

If you want compressed video etc, it might be worth checking out the Elphel first and paying the extra couple of hundred of dollars.

Les Dit · March 4th, 2006, 02:08 AM

Any pricing on these artray cameras? You said they are cheaper, but by how much ?
I don't need compressed, and that other cam is a little too much of an 'always in beta' mode for me!

Oscar Spierenburg · March 4th, 2006, 05:52 AM

Wayne, I got another reply from the Belgian about this(must be something new):
<<< The video is stored as a avi which you can edit in something like Vegas if you have a Mjpeg codec (I use the morgan one). The liveCD is a bootable OS so your Laptop will boot from the CD drive rather then the hard drive. It does not matter what OS you have installed on the drive.>>>

I hope I have some time to meet him and try out the cameras (he owns the 313 and the 333).
The only problem he mentioned (I quoted him some posts back) is that the file size goes up when there is a lot of moving detail (like trees) because of the compression (or lack of it to sustain the quality)
Now I was wondering.. using a 35mm adapter washes out a lot of detail in the out of focus area's because of the short Depth of Field. Wouldn't that be an advantage?

Wayne Morellini · March 4th, 2006, 10:38 PM

I don't know, depends on how the compression works, but I am more interested in how this Ogg can be made to perform, is it any good for us?

Les

I can't locate the price list at the moment, but I believe it was $550. It is a shame I couldn't get a group together to compile a list of cheap cameras out there, back in the Digital Cinema days.

March 2nd, 2006, 06:51 PM	#317
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	I didn't got a reply yet, but to answer your question..this is what Dan wrote(sadly, he's still suspended - he had some clever idea's) <<<<mount a MC filter (that will act as a mirror) at 45 deg (closest to the GG) and a tiny CMOS surveillance type on top to capture the image of the GG (reflected in the filter)and display it on a monitor (of your choice) You can mount the CMOS so you see it up right. They (CMOS) do not need A LOT OF LIGHT to give you an image (remember, it "steals" the image of the reflection in the filter) they are cheap (less than $20) and your camcorder will not suffer any amount of light loss or image degradation. (this is kind of a tiny prompter or videoassist for film cameras)>>>> Of course it means you have to use a 35mm adapter for this, I hope my wax glass gives high enough resolution (that's not the right word) because it is small and doesn't loose much light. By the way, have you noticed at the bottom of the price info on the Elphel 333 model the note on a free or discount camera if you're doing an interesting project? Maybe we'll get a discount if some people here (including me) would order together and present it as a project...which it would be unless we don't share our findings here of course...just a thought. Last edited by Oscar Spierenburg; March 2nd, 2006 at 07:22 PM.

March 2nd, 2006, 08:20 PM	#319
Daniel Rudd Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: North Muskegon, MI Posts: 213	If you go for a group discount. I might be in. Thanks for your work on this guys. __________________ Daniel Rudd Digital Storyteller (Sony HDV, Aspect HD) Soundtrack Creation & Royalty Free Music Production www.stock20.com

March 3rd, 2006, 05:43 AM	#320
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	external trigger possible on these? Oscar, Do any of these usb cmos cameras have the ability to take a frame when an external trigger tells it to ? I am searching for one that I can sync to a flashing light, and I can provide a TTL signal for the 'take a frame now' signal. I can write a c program to control it, if needed, but the frame has to happen pretty much right when the trigger happens. The strobe is about 30 ms light duration. Any ideas ? Thanks! -Les

March 3rd, 2006, 10:13 AM	#321
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Les, sorry but I don't know enough about this to answer that. Have you checked the forum on the Elphel site? (I posted the link some posts back) I got a reply from the Belgian guy. It's a very nice guy and he's interested in this project. He says: <<I can record 18minute long files (2gb file limit). >> <<The problem I have is I have constantly moving complex image & if the image becomes very complex (under trees in a sunny forest) the mjpeg becomes bigger & thus you start to drop frames if you’re already pushing the limit of your laptops ability to move the data to the hard drive.>> You should know that he is filming on the road from a car, so that is really the worst case compared to most indoor scenes most of us would probably need to film. He offered to meet him and see how the camera would do on my 1.5Ghz laptop. I hope I can find a way to do that, because he lives on the other end of Belgium(but he also says he's in Holland soon for work). About a group discount proposal to Elphel...it's not a bad idea. We have to keep it in mind.. Last edited by Oscar Spierenburg; March 4th, 2006 at 05:54 AM.

March 4th, 2006, 05:52 AM	#329
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Wayne, I got another reply from the Belgian about this(must be something new): <<< The video is stored as a avi which you can edit in something like Vegas if you have a Mjpeg codec (I use the morgan one). The liveCD is a bootable OS so your Laptop will boot from the CD drive rather then the hard drive. It does not matter what OS you have installed on the drive.>>> I hope I have some time to meet him and try out the cameras (he owns the 313 and the 333). The only problem he mentioned (I quoted him some posts back) is that the file size goes up when there is a lot of moving detail (like trees) because of the compression (or lack of it to sustain the quality) Now I was wondering.. using a 35mm adapter washes out a lot of detail in the out of focus area's because of the short Depth of Field. Wouldn't that be an advantage? Last edited by Oscar Spierenburg; March 4th, 2006 at 12:22 PM.

March 2nd, 2006, 04:23 PM	#316
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	keep up the work oscar, i am very interested in this camera also. let us know what he says . a question, how do you put a mirror or glass between the lens and adapter, does it have to move out of the way before we start recording the image? how do film camera viewfinders work? thanks . cuz, i would also need a view finder if i was going to use this camera.

March 2nd, 2006, 07:01 PM	#318
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	yah i know what you mean, i saw that note a while back, and so i did email him with my lengthy presentation of what i planned to do with his camera. (the whole 35mm adapter and everrthing) he wrote back and it seemed as almost i was going to get the camera at free/discount. but he said he needed to talk it over with his friends before he could make any decisions. i said, "sounds good, lemme know what happens" and he said he will. but thats the last i heard from Aundrey. perhaps he didnt like it and he was just trying to be nice. i hope he doesnt just blow me off. but what can i do, i gave it my best. but yah, perhaps as a team, we can convice him. thanks

March 3rd, 2006, 09:30 PM	#322
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Elphel has indicated to me special deals for people the want to develop the camera. So if anybody here would like to develop a video capture front end, and/or disk recording solution, than he may, hopefully, help. Now for some news, there is a new PDA like PC platform coming, and prices will be around that of a cheap laptop, but it gives a good handheld small form-factor computer and monitor. Maybe as a good recording platform (as long as you can connect something to record the ?100Mb/s stream. As long as you know what your doing, but this is not so demanding as the Raw cinema cameras as 100Mb/s is only a fraction of what they were doing. You might even consider a PDA of some sort. http://www.origamiproject.com The good news is that flash card memory devices are quiet low, so in theory faster versions (that can sustain 100Mb/s) in USB2 or Flash variations (they usually are the cheapest) of 8GB might be possible. Just remember with the 333 camera, it's advantage is Ogg, but nowhere have I seen, or been told exactly what bit rate it can use in the Ethernet stream, what compression rate, or how it particularly performs in relation to Mpeg2. I have viewed the video clips under magnification, and it does worry me, it would be good to get these answers from Elphel first. The only other consideration is work flow! Capture edit effects, trans-code to finale, how is it goign to happen. Maybe one of the Linux editor/capture applications like Cinelerra (used in the movie industry) already does it, but I have seen no information. Re-edit: Sorry for the repeat I only just saw the posts on the free Elphel stuff on the previous page.

March 3rd, 2006, 11:01 PM	#324
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Thanks Wayne, I only need about 1.3 megapixels for this camera. It just has to support some kind of trigger mechanism.

March 3rd, 2006, 11:23 PM	#325
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Maybe the Sync signal can be used as a trigger on different cameras?

March 4th, 2006, 12:04 AM	#326
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	The artray cameras do support external trigger, that's good. But where can I get one, and for how much ? I see they sell in Australia ? I hate web sites that make it hard to buy the damned product they are trying to sell!!!! -Les

March 4th, 2006, 12:14 AM	#327
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	They have a website in Japan, Taiwan, or Hong Kong, that's where you buy order the Australian ones from. If you want compressed video etc, it might be worth checking out the Elphel first and paying the extra couple of hundred of dollars.

March 4th, 2006, 02:08 AM	#328
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Any pricing on these artray cameras? You said they are cheaper, but by how much ? I don't need compressed, and that other cam is a little too much of an 'always in beta' mode for me!

March 4th, 2006, 10:38 PM	#330
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I don't know, depends on how the compression works, but I am more interested in how this Ogg can be made to perform, is it any good for us? Les I can't locate the price list at the moment, but I believe it was $550. It is a shame I couldn't get a group together to compile a list of cheap cameras out there, back in the Digital Cinema days.