3 channel 36 bit 1280 X 720 low $ camera - Viper?

Anhar Miah · July 9th, 2004, 09:35 AM

This is what you guys want "super Polymer Lithium Ion" they have the hightest Power/Volume Density of any current technologies,

Electrovaya (a Canaidan company)

Check out there site:

http://www.electrovaya.com/

Also, if you have time and i know this is out of topic please also visit:

www.evuk.co.uk

I feel very strongly about, electric vehicles, if only you guys/ and gals knew about the advances in techonolgy that have been made you would have converted long ago, but alas the big Oil corps and politics are holding us back to the dark ages:

Factual example:Solectria Sunrise* - 373 miles per charge. ('mpc') (cost - £3.50)

Tzero 0-60 in 3.7 seconds (300 miles range per charge)

Hopes this Helps!

Wayne Morellini · July 9th, 2004, 11:23 AM

Thanks Anhar, and all you guys.

Sorry but bed time, Less dissy, but things making less sense.

I have some great new, stop the FPGA stuff, we might have a solution (after cameralink).

The head of VIA's processor subsidary:
http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2656883479.html

Notice the DSP like hardware acceleration in the next chip mentioned down the bottom. My guess is that it might be something remarkable like PIM's or clearspeed. Also notice they work closely together with nerw customers. It occurs to me we have simualr needs to the Blade server market (multiple drives, multiple Gb Ethernet, high speed (through multiple on board parrallel preocessors)). We also have simlular needs to the multimedia, high defintion DVD recorder market (using HDMI/DVI input/output and compression). It occurs to me that one of their potential platforms might over lap with our needs, and if it doesn't they might be persuaded to overlap it. They have many reference platforms and are a nice company to work with.

New alternative low PC powered processor by AMD, but faster:

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/V...5510%2C00.html

Nice case:
http://www.mini-itx.com/news/archive.asp?date=0405

One of these pages (lost it) on the itx website, under computex coverage had some ITX product running "surveilence" footage on a screen, I only saw a glimps but I think it was multiple video streams on a 16:9 moinitor (only got a glimps before a closed the window).

Been to it website, couldn't find any DC power supply reference.

Thanks

Wayne.

Aaron Shaw · July 14th, 2004, 08:42 PM

New here and honestly overwhelmed by the hundreds of posts in various threads. I must say I am rather lost.

Anyway, I am most interested in this low cost project in particular. I may have missed this but has a test version been completed? When is a possible release? What cost?

Very interested in this... very.

Wayne Morellini · July 20th, 2004, 01:20 AM

I am supposed to be away for a week, but here goes.

Go to the 4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project thread, most of the action is happening there for the moment. Obin is experimenting with a lowend Bayer 720p design. We are trying to do any camera, Sumix and SI (Silicon Image) are making cameras that specifically suit our puposes, only Sumix is targeting their designs specifically for us.

Prices are vary variable, as we are trying to make it so you can put together a camera to your needs and price.
We are trying to target a $5K system price, but it could be done cheaper or more expensive. This would be camera head and computer systemn priuce. I imagine that you could do it for $2K, but you would end up with either a cheap and nasty $1K camera head or bulky computer (camerass are availble for less than hundreds of dollers, but you get what you pay for). Both companies are aiming for the higher end Rockwell Altsens chip range. The Altsen is at the high end of the mid range market, and as such is good value, compared tot he expensive cinema sensors that would cost $4K-$10K+ just for the sensor (then add price to make into complete camera head).

The software is a work in progress, done by Rob S and Rob L. Recently (the last time I was here) Obin has hired his own programmer to get his project workming for a professional work sooner. We have been approached by another seriouse production at the same time, hopefully something canbe worked out for them.

Goto my Home Made HD Cinema Cameras threads for links to information website and threads.

Thanks

Wayne.

Wayne Morellini · July 20th, 2004, 02:59 AM

I have received an email from the manufacturer that has the low volume distribution rights to Foveon based box cameras. It is as we have expected, there is no HD Foveon scheduled for release.

I have given them something to think about in terms of volume appeal, so hopefully things might change oneday.

Thanks

Wayne.

Aaron Shaw · July 20th, 2004, 09:51 AM

Thanks Wayne. I have been following the progress in the other threads as well. There are just so many different things happening at once it is hard to sort them all out!

Does anyone have an approximate completion date for any of these cameras? I'm just rather curious as I am going to be shooting a feature (possibly in September, if not then next spring) and would love to go uncompressed HD.

So if I understand correctly there are essentially two different cameras in development both with the same basic goals?

Rob Scott · July 20th, 2004, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Aaron Shaw wrote:
So if I understand correctly there are essentially two different cameras in development both with the same basic goals?

That's correct. Obin has hired developers to complete his project, while I am still (mostly) on my own at this point.

Wayne Morellini · July 20th, 2004, 11:59 AM

The problem is that it maybe easier said than done. The sort of programming to maximise through put canbe above most programmers. I try to hint at Rob in what to look out for, and who might have the answers, but your average developer is a hack in comparison. Otherwise Windows and applications would be virtually crashless, fast efficent, without massive guidlines to fence in bad programmers who don't care. At uni our studfies covered case studies that showed differences between the best programmers and the worst as 100:1 (I think, from memory), I think most programmers won't get to 10:1.

Aaron Shaw · July 20th, 2004, 02:26 PM

Yes I know what you mean Wayne. I have done some minor programming here and there and it is very hard to write good code.

Forgive my lack of knowledge - I'm probably just missing something (and this may not be the best place for my questions) but:

1) Have protoypes been constructed and functionality verified? I've looked around but haven't really seen any screen grabs or video tests.

2) Is it likely that a working product will be available in the next few months?

3) Regarding portability; will a self contained camera being implemented (ie a camera that would not require a separate laptop, thus record to some form of internal RAID system)?

I am specifically interested in the possiblity/looking for a portable HD camera that I could take home at the end of a shoot, dump onto a large RAID and then take out shooting the next day/week.

I understand that there are still many problems to solve - I'm just interested in some form of predicted time table for future developments if it is possible to provide such.

Rob Scott · July 20th, 2004, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Aaron Shaw wrote:
Have protoypes been constructed and functionality verified? I've looked around but haven't really seen any screen grabs or video tests.

You can follow my progress here and you'll find a couple of screen grabs -- video frame only, I don't have much of a UI running yet.

Quote:

Is it likely that a working product will be available in the next few months?

Almost certainly. Obin's project may be done sooner, since he has some developers who can work on it full time, but mine is coming along as well.

Quote:

will a self contained camera being implemented ...
I am specifically interested in the possiblity/looking for a portable HD camera

Several people have discussed ways to do that also, but it's obviously a great deal more work to build an "embedded" system. I think it will happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Aaron Shaw · July 20th, 2004, 03:03 PM

Thanks Rob. I really appreciate it and look forward to the progress you guys make.

On a side note - I like the ObscureCam site. You guys have certainly loaded it with information. Is it possible to add these sort of questions to the FAQ? I am sure there are others interested in possible release dates as well (maybe I just missed this).

Thanks.

Wayne Morellini · July 20th, 2004, 09:27 PM

If you look at the 10 bit 4:4:4 thread of Obin's you will find footage and screen grabs galor (well at least a really lot of MB's of them). His camera protype is working.

Wayne Morellini · December 7th, 2004, 05:06 AM

Nothing extra special, some new micron models, no Altasens yet.

http://optics.sumix.com/products/cameras/index.html

Wayne.

Régine Weinberg · December 7th, 2004, 06:45 AM

Dear Wayne thank's for the links. I know you like linuxdevices.com
like me. I know good code is hard to write, too much memory nowadays, anything too fast.

20 years ago all had to fit to 64K up to 640 K, that was the way to write good, fast code. Look at Windows XP ton's of pure waste here.

Go to gentoo Linux anything open to be compiled by you up to your needs, maybe the hardest way to install a Linux OS but fast,slim, if you need

Wayne Morellini · December 8th, 2004, 02:45 AM

Yes, places like Linux devices and Windows devices, make it easy to do research, they gather news and links in one place ;)

64K of code space, that is luxury, I thought you were 1-4K crowed ;). I once knew a guy that did a whole IDE disk interface code in something like 30-40 bytes, now that is economical. Admitedly that instruction set was 5 bits long packed in 20 bit words, and the guy was a grand master Forth based stack programmer.

That is why I think Linux and Windows is so bloated, and prefer things like Geoworks/Breadbox that can fit a full GUI OS and office in something like 7MB (even that is bloated). Seriously, you should be able to fit that into 1MB ;) I think an objective floor for a fully functional OS is 100KB (1-10KB core) add to that all the bells and whistles and it should be 1MB-10MB. People don't think this way nowdays, they think quick in and quick out, like the military, and "just as messy" ;) Why bulldose a path in with a big big tank, when you can ride a puish bike in and out, lot less damage, a lot less messy ;). They fight themselves (and much code is victim of friendly fire!). Handcrafted code is thought to be no longer needed, and is generally restricted to places that are real about programming, like realtime embedded situations where precision and efficiency is the only way to survive in the consumer electronics market place, or mission critical stuff like Nasa. The truth is few programmers can do it propperly.

July 9th, 2004, 09:35 AM	#271
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	POWER HUNGRY? This is what you guys want "super Polymer Lithium Ion" they have the hightest Power/Volume Density of any current technologies, Electrovaya (a Canaidan company) Check out there site: http://www.electrovaya.com/ Also, if you have time and i know this is out of topic please also visit: www.evuk.co.uk I feel very strongly about, electric vehicles, if only you guys/ and gals knew about the advances in techonolgy that have been made you would have converted long ago, but alas the big Oil corps and politics are holding us back to the dark ages: Factual example:Solectria Sunrise* - 373 miles per charge. ('mpc') (cost - £3.50) Tzero 0-60 in 3.7 seconds (300 miles range per charge) Hopes this Helps!

July 9th, 2004, 11:23 AM	#272
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Re: MEG update Thanks Anhar, and all you guys. Sorry but bed time, Less dissy, but things making less sense. I have some great new, stop the FPGA stuff, we might have a solution (after cameralink). The head of VIA's processor subsidary: http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2656883479.html Notice the DSP like hardware acceleration in the next chip mentioned down the bottom. My guess is that it might be something remarkable like PIM's or clearspeed. Also notice they work closely together with nerw customers. It occurs to me we have simualr needs to the Blade server market (multiple drives, multiple Gb Ethernet, high speed (through multiple on board parrallel preocessors)). We also have simlular needs to the multimedia, high defintion DVD recorder market (using HDMI/DVI input/output and compression). It occurs to me that one of their potential platforms might over lap with our needs, and if it doesn't they might be persuaded to overlap it. They have many reference platforms and are a nice company to work with. New alternative low PC powered processor by AMD, but faster: http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/V...5510%2C00.html Nice case: http://www.mini-itx.com/news/archive.asp?date=0405 One of these pages (lost it) on the itx website, under computex coverage had some ITX product running "surveilence" footage on a screen, I only saw a glimps but I think it was multiple video streams on a 16:9 moinitor (only got a glimps before a closed the window). Been to it website, couldn't find any DC power supply reference. Thanks Wayne.

December 7th, 2004, 05:06 AM	#283
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	New Sumix cameras. Nothing extra special, some new micron models, no Altasens yet. http://optics.sumix.com/products/cameras/index.html Wayne.

July 14th, 2004, 08:42 PM	#273
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	New here and honestly overwhelmed by the hundreds of posts in various threads. I must say I am rather lost. Anyway, I am most interested in this low cost project in particular. I may have missed this but has a test version been completed? When is a possible release? What cost? Very interested in this... very.

July 20th, 2004, 01:20 AM	#274
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I am supposed to be away for a week, but here goes. Go to the 4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project thread, most of the action is happening there for the moment. Obin is experimenting with a lowend Bayer 720p design. We are trying to do any camera, Sumix and SI (Silicon Image) are making cameras that specifically suit our puposes, only Sumix is targeting their designs specifically for us. Prices are vary variable, as we are trying to make it so you can put together a camera to your needs and price. We are trying to target a $5K system price, but it could be done cheaper or more expensive. This would be camera head and computer systemn priuce. I imagine that you could do it for $2K, but you would end up with either a cheap and nasty $1K camera head or bulky computer (camerass are availble for less than hundreds of dollers, but you get what you pay for). Both companies are aiming for the higher end Rockwell Altsens chip range. The Altsen is at the high end of the mid range market, and as such is good value, compared tot he expensive cinema sensors that would cost $4K-$10K+ just for the sensor (then add price to make into complete camera head). The software is a work in progress, done by Rob S and Rob L. Recently (the last time I was here) Obin has hired his own programmer to get his project workming for a professional work sooner. We have been approached by another seriouse production at the same time, hopefully something canbe worked out for them. Goto my Home Made HD Cinema Cameras threads for links to information website and threads. Thanks Wayne.

July 20th, 2004, 02:59 AM	#275
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I have received an email from the manufacturer that has the low volume distribution rights to Foveon based box cameras. It is as we have expected, there is no HD Foveon scheduled for release. I have given them something to think about in terms of volume appeal, so hopefully things might change oneday. Thanks Wayne.

July 20th, 2004, 09:51 AM	#276
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Thanks Wayne. I have been following the progress in the other threads as well. There are just so many different things happening at once it is hard to sort them all out! Does anyone have an approximate completion date for any of these cameras? I'm just rather curious as I am going to be shooting a feature (possibly in September, if not then next spring) and would love to go uncompressed HD. So if I understand correctly there are essentially two different cameras in development both with the same basic goals?

July 20th, 2004, 11:59 AM	#278
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	The problem is that it maybe easier said than done. The sort of programming to maximise through put canbe above most programmers. I try to hint at Rob in what to look out for, and who might have the answers, but your average developer is a hack in comparison. Otherwise Windows and applications would be virtually crashless, fast efficent, without massive guidlines to fence in bad programmers who don't care. At uni our studfies covered case studies that showed differences between the best programmers and the worst as 100:1 (I think, from memory), I think most programmers won't get to 10:1.

July 20th, 2004, 02:26 PM	#279
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Yes I know what you mean Wayne. I have done some minor programming here and there and it is very hard to write good code. Forgive my lack of knowledge - I'm probably just missing something (and this may not be the best place for my questions) but: 1) Have protoypes been constructed and functionality verified? I've looked around but haven't really seen any screen grabs or video tests. 2) Is it likely that a working product will be available in the next few months? 3) Regarding portability; will a self contained camera being implemented (ie a camera that would not require a separate laptop, thus record to some form of internal RAID system)? I am specifically interested in the possiblity/looking for a portable HD camera that I could take home at the end of a shoot, dump onto a large RAID and then take out shooting the next day/week. I understand that there are still many problems to solve - I'm just interested in some form of predicted time table for future developments if it is possible to provide such.

July 20th, 2004, 03:03 PM	#281
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Thanks Rob. I really appreciate it and look forward to the progress you guys make. On a side note - I like the ObscureCam site. You guys have certainly loaded it with information. Is it possible to add these sort of questions to the FAQ? I am sure there are others interested in possible release dates as well (maybe I just missed this). Thanks.

July 20th, 2004, 09:27 PM	#282
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	If you look at the 10 bit 4:4:4 thread of Obin's you will find footage and screen grabs galor (well at least a really lot of MB's of them). His camera protype is working.

December 7th, 2004, 06:45 AM	#284
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	Dear Wayne thank's for the links. I know you like linuxdevices.com like me. I know good code is hard to write, too much memory nowadays, anything too fast. 20 years ago all had to fit to 64K up to 640 K, that was the way to write good, fast code. Look at Windows XP ton's of pure waste here. Go to gentoo Linux anything open to be compiled by you up to your needs, maybe the hardest way to install a Linux OS but fast,slim, if you need

December 8th, 2004, 02:45 AM	#285
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yes, places like Linux devices and Windows devices, make it easy to do research, they gather news and links in one place ;) 64K of code space, that is luxury, I thought you were 1-4K crowed ;). I once knew a guy that did a whole IDE disk interface code in something like 30-40 bytes, now that is economical. Admitedly that instruction set was 5 bits long packed in 20 bit words, and the guy was a grand master Forth based stack programmer. That is why I think Linux and Windows is so bloated, and prefer things like Geoworks/Breadbox that can fit a full GUI OS and office in something like 7MB (even that is bloated). Seriously, you should be able to fit that into 1MB ;) I think an objective floor for a fully functional OS is 100KB (1-10KB core) add to that all the bells and whistles and it should be 1MB-10MB. People don't think this way nowdays, they think quick in and quick out, like the military, and "just as messy" ;) Why bulldose a path in with a big big tank, when you can ride a puish bike in and out, lot less damage, a lot less messy ;). They fight themselves (and much code is victim of friendly fire!). Handcrafted code is thought to be no longer needed, and is generally restricted to places that are real about programming, like realtime embedded situations where precision and efficiency is the only way to survive in the consumer electronics market place, or mission critical stuff like Nasa. The truth is few programmers can do it propperly.