Any engineers in the house?

Nicholi Brossia · April 28th, 2004, 02:38 PM

Juan,
I've been following your 4:4:4 thread and am very intrigued by your experiments. I think its a great idea and will end up being a very usable hack for zero budget moviemakers like myself. I'm actually suprised at how quickly you're developing these experiments and am looking forward to your future findings.

John,
I was very enthusiastic about finding a way to modify my camcorder to record an inverted and reverted image and, as you've read, asked a lot of questions. After a while, I started thinking that with all of the real-time editors out now, its really not such a setback to flip the image in post thanks to no render time requirements. Rotating the DVX's ccds would be a neat idea, but would also cause the camcorder image to be flipped during normal video recording, so the camcorder would basically have to be a designated 35mm adapted recorder. I guess what I'm getting to is that even though your prism idea is valid, it probably wouldn't be worth the time and money since you can just flip it so easily in post. Of course, if you really want to experiment with that, I say go for it. Honestly, that's how the 35mm adapter and 4:4:4 threads began, and they've become huge.

Joel,
It sounds like you're asking about just flipping the image on the lcd and not effecting the actual recorded image. This thread actually approaches the idea of how to do just that. Alain Dumais figured out how to trick his VX2000 into thinking the lcd was flipped around (for viewing from in front of the camcorder) which gave me the confidence to figure out how to trick my GL2. The two cameras actually have completely different mechanisms for flipping the image and yours could use either or even another type, but maybe you could use these as reference for the DVX? You might want to try talking to Brett Erskine about flipping the lcd image because he may or may not have figured it out for his DVX. Last I heard, he was experimenting at the same time as I was with the GL2, but never posted a result.

Joel Corkin · April 28th, 2004, 03:20 PM

Nicholi, thanks for the link. I'm going to look into it. I'm already excited. Sorry I misspelled your name in my last post.

Brett Erskine · April 28th, 2004, 06:59 PM

Hes a update for Nicholi and anyone else trying to trick their camera into fliping the image (in the monitor only) on the DVX100. It looks like its a mechanical switch set to trigger when you rotate the monitor. I tried to unscrew the screws around that area but was unable to get access to where I believe the switch would be. Im going to have to talk to a Panasonic tech about this. Once inside it should be real easy to trigger. In fact I plan on putting a small/simple switch on the outside of my DVX100 so I can shoot with and without the adapter quickly. Please by all means call up the techs yourself and tell us IN DETAIL what you find out.

Brett Erskine
www.CinematographerReels.com

Juan P. Pertierra · April 28th, 2004, 07:14 PM

The switch is right inside the outside shell where the axis of the display goes into the case. It is on the bottom, it has a little circuit board with the black switch on it, looks like some small soldering but the contacts are easily accessible.

Juan

Brett Erskine · April 28th, 2004, 11:17 PM

I just tried the idea of using a magnet to trick the monitor to flip the image and it works....BUT I think the magnet might be harmful to the monitor because it started to flash and loose the signal. Im not sure if you can do fatal damage to it so before you try it for yourself hop on google and find out what magnets do to LCD screens.

-Brett Erskine

Cosmin Rotaru · April 29th, 2004, 08:30 AM

I tried with the magnet that is already attached to the camera. (XM2 or GL2). Under the LCD there's a small rubber seal that you can take of and it has the litle magnet on it. I used that magnet and it worked OK, without flashings or anything else.

Nicholi Brossia · April 29th, 2004, 02:57 PM

Cosmin, that's the simplest way because it fits in there nicely, but one quick movement and you'll lose the magnet, which wouldn't be good. That's how I rigged it at first, but then figured out that the thin fridge magnet works the same. That's probably a safer idea.

James Ball · April 29th, 2004, 07:29 PM

the cheapest, most and most optically perfect pathway is to leave it inverted.

I can see the point of viewing the image inverted for framing purposes but capturing? The only justification I can see for that is for live broadcast.

If you are editing or doing any post the transform is just too easy scale -100% on the vertical axis. even if you have a modest PC it'll take no time at all.

best of all except for the small amount of time it's free.

the glass needed to do this optically is either cost or quality prohibitive.

Paolo Rudelli · May 1st, 2004, 05:38 AM

made a posso prism system is not to expensiv

porro & roof prism??

quote:Porro Prisms are narrow right angle prisms used in pairs to make a system that erects and reverts an image from the objective lens of an optical system.

you know that porro prism act like roof prism to revert image???

how to use ??? to "erects and reverts an image" ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porro_prism

link for porro prism maby "big" for for us
http://www.aosa.es/Ing/Catalogo/optica/prismas/Porro2Class.htm
http://www.aosa.es/Ing/Catalogo/optica/prismas/notpor.htm

and this look like p+S kit ;) ;)
http://hardinoptical.com/tvporro.html

__________________
http://paolo.rudelli.lickthetoad.org

April 28th, 2004, 02:38 PM	#16
Nicholi Brossia Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 389	Juan, I've been following your 4:4:4 thread and am very intrigued by your experiments. I think its a great idea and will end up being a very usable hack for zero budget moviemakers like myself. I'm actually suprised at how quickly you're developing these experiments and am looking forward to your future findings. John, I was very enthusiastic about finding a way to modify my camcorder to record an inverted and reverted image and, as you've read, asked a lot of questions. After a while, I started thinking that with all of the real-time editors out now, its really not such a setback to flip the image in post thanks to no render time requirements. Rotating the DVX's ccds would be a neat idea, but would also cause the camcorder image to be flipped during normal video recording, so the camcorder would basically have to be a designated 35mm adapted recorder. I guess what I'm getting to is that even though your prism idea is valid, it probably wouldn't be worth the time and money since you can just flip it so easily in post. Of course, if you really want to experiment with that, I say go for it. Honestly, that's how the 35mm adapter and 4:4:4 threads began, and they've become huge. Joel, It sounds like you're asking about just flipping the image on the lcd and not effecting the actual recorded image. This thread actually approaches the idea of how to do just that. Alain Dumais figured out how to trick his VX2000 into thinking the lcd was flipped around (for viewing from in front of the camcorder) which gave me the confidence to figure out how to trick my GL2. The two cameras actually have completely different mechanisms for flipping the image and yours could use either or even another type, but maybe you could use these as reference for the DVX? You might want to try talking to Brett Erskine about flipping the lcd image because he may or may not have figured it out for his DVX. Last I heard, he was experimenting at the same time as I was with the GL2, but never posted a result. __________________ Nicholi Brossia

April 29th, 2004, 08:30 AM	#21
Cosmin Rotaru Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Romania, Timisoara Posts: 453	I tried with the magnet that is already attached to the camera. (XM2 or GL2). Under the LCD there's a small rubber seal that you can take of and it has the litle magnet on it. I used that magnet and it worked OK, without flashings or anything else. __________________ Cosmin Rotaru

April 29th, 2004, 02:57 PM	#22
Nicholi Brossia Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 389	Cosmin, that's the simplest way because it fits in there nicely, but one quick movement and you'll lose the magnet, which wouldn't be good. That's how I rigged it at first, but then figured out that the thin fridge magnet works the same. That's probably a safer idea. __________________ Nicholi Brossia

April 29th, 2004, 07:29 PM	#23
James Ball Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sulphur, LA Posts: 61	For recording the cheapest, most and most optically perfect pathway is to leave it inverted. I can see the point of viewing the image inverted for framing purposes but capturing? The only justification I can see for that is for live broadcast. If you are editing or doing any post the transform is just too easy scale -100% on the vertical axis. even if you have a modest PC it'll take no time at all. best of all except for the small amount of time it's free. the glass needed to do this optically is either cost or quality prohibitive.

May 1st, 2004, 05:38 AM	#24
Paolo Rudelli Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milan-Berlin-Paris-Bruxelles Posts: 26	posso prism made a posso prism system is not to expensiv porro & roof prism?? quote:Porro Prisms are narrow right angle prisms used in pairs to make a system that erects and reverts an image from the objective lens of an optical system. you know that porro prism act like roof prism to revert image??? how to use ??? to "erects and reverts an image" ??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porro_prism link for porro prism maby "big" for for us http://www.aosa.es/Ing/Catalogo/optica/prismas/Porro2Class.htm http://www.aosa.es/Ing/Catalogo/optica/prismas/notpor.htm and this look like p+S kit ;) ;) http://hardinoptical.com/tvporro.html __________________ http://paolo.rudelli.lickthetoad.org __________________ http://paolorudelli.lickthetoad.org

April 28th, 2004, 03:20 PM	#17
Joel Corkin Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto/L.A. Posts: 47	Nicholi, thanks for the link. I'm going to look into it. I'm already excited. Sorry I misspelled your name in my last post.

April 28th, 2004, 06:59 PM	#18
Brett Erskine Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 445	Hes a update for Nicholi and anyone else trying to trick their camera into fliping the image (in the monitor only) on the DVX100. It looks like its a mechanical switch set to trigger when you rotate the monitor. I tried to unscrew the screws around that area but was unable to get access to where I believe the switch would be. Im going to have to talk to a Panasonic tech about this. Once inside it should be real easy to trigger. In fact I plan on putting a small/simple switch on the outside of my DVX100 so I can shoot with and without the adapter quickly. Please by all means call up the techs yourself and tell us IN DETAIL what you find out. Brett Erskine www.CinematographerReels.com

April 28th, 2004, 07:14 PM	#19
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	The switch is right inside the outside shell where the axis of the display goes into the case. It is on the bottom, it has a little circuit board with the black switch on it, looks like some small soldering but the contacts are easily accessible. Juan

April 28th, 2004, 11:17 PM	#20
Brett Erskine Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 445	I just tried the idea of using a magnet to trick the monitor to flip the image and it works....BUT I think the magnet might be harmful to the monitor because it started to flash and loose the signal. Im not sure if you can do fatal damage to it so before you try it for yourself hop on google and find out what magnets do to LCD screens. -Brett Erskine