4:4:4 12-bit Uncompressed DVX100

[Aaron Shaw]

>>Hang on. You want to overlook the drive on the camera and lug an entire computer around with you, to record the image data on its.... hard drive?<<

I assume you mean build in a drive on the camera? As far as I know there isn't a drive on the DVX100 normally..

>>Yaright, okay, you're one of those people!<<

It won't be as good you are right. I'm not sure if digibeta cameras record at higher than 10 bits normally but that could be one difference. The only other factor that really makes a difference is the optics which will of course be better on that level of camera (though the DVX does a darn good job).

[Ben Syverson]

The only other factor that really makes a difference is the optics

Not true at all -- sensor quality varies wildly.

[Aaron Shaw]

Mmm yes very true. Thanks for correcting me Ben. I didn't think of that aspect!

[Luis Caffesse]

"Hang on. You want to overlook the drive on the camera and lug an entire computer around with you, to record the image data on its.... hard drive"

In order to be able to capture footage which I can edit directly, and not have to deal with RAW files and offlines. Yes.
To me it's worth it. To you it may not be. That's fine by me, why
do you seem to have such a problem with it? No one is asking you to use SDI.

And by the way, if I understand correctly, the drive won't be "on" the camera, but will be connected to the camera through a FW800 port.


"Yaright, okay, you're one of those people"

Phil, you've jumped into this thread out of nowhere, and you don't know me from Adam. Please don't assume to know "what kind" of person I am, if there even is such a thing.

Again, if you don't want to use SDI, don't.
I'm not trying to convince you to use it.
Please don't try to convince me not to.

I am really baffled as to why anyone would try to argue that LESS options would be better.

But, this thread is getting off topic.

There really isn't anything else to say about SDI.
It's up to Juan as to whether or not he will include it in the final design.

Until then, I'll just be quiet on the whole SDI issue.
For some reason it seems to ruffle feathers.

-Luis

[Juan P. Pertierra]

There are many things to consider.

Optics-wise, anything with changeable lenses is probably better than having to stick with a single lens.

CCD wise, i'm not sure what the 790 has, but i'm betting it's a bit larger in size and resolution, and yields lower noise.

The quality of the output you can get from the camera is where this mod(gotta stop saying that some day) probably edges out an expensive digibeta.

Does the SDI output on the 790 provide the video BEFORE compression? Is the dynamic range limited after the SDI output? Probably not. If there is something i've learned, is that just about every camera with a tape in it has to first of all comply with the video standards, and then try and get a decent look out of the whole thing. Just now it seems to be slowly changing, but even cameras like the SDX900 are nothing more than standard video cameras with, i must say, ingenous ways of 'looking' like you are getting around the video limitations while still complying with standards.

It is true up to a certain point, that even with larger CCD's, if all you can get is a compressed NTSC 8-bit video stream, the 12-bit undecimated uncompressed data from a more humble camera will look better.

Whether the 790 is above or below this point, i don't know. Anyone have access to a 790? :)

Juan

[Filip Kovcin]

by chance i have the access to beta 790, i'm assuming you are talking about dvw790. correct?

if you need any details from manual/user's guide etc. or just personal opinion i will be glad do send you any info. but you can check also this link

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professiona...sp=11&id=19524

thanks,

filip

[Juan P. Pertierra]

Filip,

that's great, i guess my main questions would be:

1.Concerning the SDI output, is the video on the SDI port the same quality you get off tape, or does it lack compression artifacts? SDI itself is uncompressed(though decimated 4:2:2), but it is possible that the video streamed is after the compression layer.

2.Can you post some test frames?

Thanks!
Juan

[Thomas Smet]

yes a 2/3 inch chip camera will generally give you better results but only really in difficult situations. I have used a SONY DSR300 (1/2 inch) and a SONY DSR-500 (2/3 inch). Even though these are great cameras they only really stand out from a really good 1/3 inch camera when in bad or low light situations. Even if great light situations the image may look a little better but only by a little bit.

When you are dealing with shooting a movie however the lighting should be carefully done so there will not be a problem. You have time to set things up properly. In live events such as weddings or when shooting for the news at nighttime you a camera that will perform well in bad situations. If I were to shoot live events in bad lighting I might choose a digibeta over the dvx100a. The whole point of this "mod" (sorry) is not to shoot cousin Timmy's Bar Mitzvah but to create a high quality movie.

If I was doing a movie with a lot of fx and keying I would gladly choose to have 24p RGB 444 12 bit images over a compressed 30i 422 8 bit anyday. Even more so considering the former option is 1/10 the cost or less. Is the very slight increase in image quality worth 10x the price? It used to be when you had the options of straight DV or highend but not anymore.

Besides the slightly lower end image optics of the dvx100a the image would actually be superior to the digibeta.

I agree that if it will not drive the cost up to much that we should have SDI. Keep in mind however that the SDI also may not have any audio so you would still need to have a dv version with the audio and then sync them up.

[Jaime Valles]

Juan (and everyone else helping with ideas):

I just wanted to jump in here and say thanks again for all the hard work with this. It's easy to lose sight of the sheer magnitude and impact that this "device" will have on the world of indie filmmakers, and therefore want to say a big THANKS!

I can't wait to see the finished product in action, and hopefully get my DVX "upgraded" in the near future. Keep up the great work, and keep us posted!

[Filip Kovcin]

i will check all things on monday - i cannot check it now (saturday and sunday). hope the camera is not on the shooting on monday :)

will pass you stills as soon as i get the camera.
i understand that you will need uncompressed tiffs? or what? anything special?

do you need to shoot something specific in front of the camera?
i have macbeth chart and panavision resolution/sharpness test chart. should i shoot them?

filip

<<<-- Originally posted by Juan P. Pertierra

1.Concerning the SDI output, is the video on the SDI port the same quality you get off tape... etc.
2.Can you post some test frames?
-->>>

[Juan P. Pertierra]

Filip,

Thanks for doing this, the ideal thing would be to get frames into an uncompressed image format like TIFF.

Color and resolution chart would be good, or if you already have a lit scene setup, you can just take a test frame of whatever is in it, or something simple like a chair, etc.

Thanks again!
Juan

[Filip Kovcin]

juan,

i spoked today with a camera assistant who knows very well "my" 790 camera. i'm not sure is he right in this case - i will check tomorrow (monday morning - european time - camera is not on the shooting). he told me very sad thing...

probbably "my" camera has just and only analog composite output. both monitor out and video out are just composite(monitor out has possibility to show info, tc etc on screen).
NO SDI out at all. but i will check that again. as i read somewhere on the net - you can find special board for SDI output from 790 but this is probably not the case with this very camera.

do you still need these images? since one frame will be from digital tape (i can grab it from digibeta tape in 10bit mode through SDI input, no additional compression) and another from composite output.... is it good at all for you?

please tell me your thoughts.

filip

[Filip Kovcin]

ok, juan. i have an idea... well.. maybe


if camera is NOT cappable to deliver signal through SDI output, i hav idea how to send you at least analog COMPONENTsignal... if i'm not wrong in my brainstorming method...

i will try to work with menus. i know that there is possibility to send signal to video/monitor output not as a whole composite but just, for example as Y, or B-y or R-y channels. maybe if i send static image 3 times - each time with different channel - you can manage to mix it somehow and to see what will happen? what do you think? i know this is not SDI but it should be the same as component signal... i hope.

filip

[Juan P. Pertierra]

Good news!

So, i'm playing around with some 4:4:4 clips, and I notice something huge.

Apparently, since before I wasn't aware that the WB adjustment altered the A/D output, the latitude tests were done without WB adjustments.

I did some tests of a high contrast scene using correct white balance adjustment, and i am getting a much higher increase in latitude, at least more than 2 FStops.

The last test i did tonight, i took a clip on DV at F5.6, with a few highlights slightly clipping. The RAW output was all but pitch black. I had to set the exposure to OPEN to get a correctly exposed image in 4:4:4.

I am very impressed...i didn't expect the 2Fstops initially, but this is incredible. It makes sense though...when i made the latitude test the WB was way off, and the white level was probably set very low on the CCD's.

Juan

[Obin Olson]

Phil needs to "wake up amd smell the coffee" and get a GRIP on what Juan is doing here..It goes so far past any "standard" camera it's not funny at all...maybe he is afraid that all the money he spent on his camera is going down the tube when Juan is done with the little black box?

Phil, things change we are in a new age of digital.

it's a GOOD thing

so how many f-stops are you getting now Juan?