4:4:4 12-bit Uncompressed DVX100

Obin Olson · May 10th, 2004, 07:52 PM

Hey gang, I am going forward with my single cmos design HD cam. I will be using a chip that can output 1280x1024 at 60fps and you can do ROI at MUCH higher framerates...It's bayer filter but looks great and I can get a 3mp chip later on...the only downside is it will have a 1/2 inch chip not 2/3rd inch, 2/3rd is closer to 16mm film then 1/2inch and I was going to use a 16mm film body for the camera. Do you guys think that building a mini35 adaptor and using a standard tv macro on the camera would work well? I was thinking of using a standard Canon 35mmSLR lens mount for the unit so that lenses are CHEAP and easy to get....what about composites with this setup? how does the mini35 effect the FOV or the MM you should set for VFX shots? how much will the mini35 setup degrade the image? should I just stick with proven tv lenses designed for 1/2inch chips and forget about the DOF issues?

Juan P. Pertierra · May 10th, 2004, 07:53 PM

I'm actually in the process of getting 3 of the Altasens sensors for a pototype...i'll be getting the 720P ones however.

I've been in the cinematography.com forums, but no one there seems to be interested in my project, so i don't really check that much.

Richard Mellor · May 10th, 2004, 08:22 PM

hi everyone I am way over my head on this one. but i was just at a convention. "the vision show east" and I spoke with a number of reps for camera companies, and told them about
our hope of building a camera. the chip he thought would work best was http://products.sel.sony.com/semi/PDF/ICX205AL.pdf
I wish I had better understanding of this. every chip was being displayed at the show and the output from these cameras was stunning

Stephen van Vuuren · May 10th, 2004, 08:27 PM

Obin:

I like the idea of the Canon 35mm lenses as I have 3 nice EF primes, but not a mini35 adaptor which to me is only a good idea if you have a DV lens already.

If you are going 1/2", why not 16mm cine lenses - lots of them on the used market and better focal length options, especially on the wide. Plus designed for motion picture and can take a wide ranges of cine accessories (follow focus, matte boxes etc.)

Stephen van Vuuren · May 10th, 2004, 08:28 PM

Obin:

Also, if you are serious, why not start on new thread here in Alternative Imaging? This one is really long already and your idea is a unique one worth highlighting on it's own.

Randall Larsen · May 10th, 2004, 08:45 PM

Les, and listmembers

Some links on Kinetta, Panavision, and Viper:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040419/195264_1.html

http://www.kinetta.com/home.php

PanavisionSVI: 8.3 million pixels?

http://www.1570.com/discus/messages/6/609.html?1036468994

http://www.panavisionsvi.com/technical_FAQ.htm

Thomson Viper:

try google.com search.

Dalsa:

www.dalsa.com/dc/dc.asp
www.dalsa.com/news/news.asp?itemID=72

Obin Olson · May 10th, 2004, 09:00 PM

you will get the crop factor like digital SLR if you use the 16mm lens with a 1/2inch chip I think more like 9mm not 16....I could do that but then your wides will not be as wide as they should...I REALLY wish they would use 2/3rd inch for that chip ;) hmm I did find one company using 2/3rd chips that can do 500fps! they record direct to RAM in the camera, full res 4000 frames to ram...small record time but good enough for a slo-mo shot I think

Richard Mellor · May 10th, 2004, 09:15 PM

I think this chip excels in low light http://www.photonlines.com/PDF/CamPdf/Pixelfly.pdf

Obin Olson · May 10th, 2004, 09:24 PM

don't forget to read the fps...we need atleast 30fps for a video cam

Richard Mellor · May 10th, 2004, 09:44 PM

I guess I had told the camera rep it would be a 24p camera.
but if we used three of these would the specs be the same as a varicam. and the pdf claims the chip supports 30fps I realy think this guy was happy at what we were doing. and think he was stering me to the best chip. oh and his company didn,t even sell the chip, he sold cmos chips

Obin Olson · May 10th, 2004, 09:53 PM

your pdf lists a max f-rate of 15fps...gota get 24-30 and for slo-mo atleast 48

Les Dit · May 11th, 2004, 12:05 AM

Juan,
Do you have a link to a data sheet describing the electrical aspects of the chip? It sounds like a nice part. It would be even better if they had a higher resolution one to allow great Bayer filtered single chip setups.
-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Juan P. Pertierra : I'm actually in the process of getting 3 of the Altasens sensors for a pototype...i'll be getting the 720P ones however.

I've been in the cinematography.com forums, but no one there seems to be interested in my project, so i don't really check that much. -->>>

Randall Larsen · May 11th, 2004, 03:12 AM

Someone was asking about data sheets on the Alsens CMOS sensor. Perhaps Juan has one. In answer to my inquiry I was given only the development kit brochure. I was told schematics for the eval board would be available.

The eval board hooks up to a Matrox frame grabber the Helios
XCL [SFCL] that acquires at 680MB per second.

http://www.matrox.com/imaging/products/helios_xcl/home.cfm

apparently the eval board puts out either video or cameralink digital.

The XCL is also used with the Dalsa Pantera 1024x1024 60fps cmos sensor camera:

ftp://ftp.matrox.com/pub/imaging/helios/appnotes/dalsa/helios_1m60.pdf

There is no application note posted for the Alsens Rockwell Chip.

There is a lot of talk recently from Sony and JVC about Ultra HD
television approaching 4k (by 2k) resolution. Dalsa's Origin camera has been doing it since NAB 2003.

The Dalsa camera will rent for $3000 per day starting in November 2004. Sony supposedly is experimenting with a 10Mega pixel unit. Kinetta is sensor independent (using Alsens for now). Alsens still has the limitation that it is not 35mm image size. The pro-teknica's 35mm to 2/3" video interface goes for $23,000 plus sufficient motivation to find a 35mm chip.

UHD may be overkill even for a film transfer (but may be useful for compositing and effects). In the movie theater it has been shown that the 4k by 4K resolution of 35mm film is not realized. The wiggle of the geneva movement in the projector reduces the on screen resolution to about 700 vertical lines. No one complains.

I think resolution over 1080 in the original might not be visible in the theater unless it was digitally projected or projected in an IMAX blowup.

Perhaps Juan can rent his modified DVX100 for say $1500 per day with suitable storage media. If no one can see much difference on a theater screen when a film transfer is projected, why would they pay $3000 per day?

Capra Mauro · May 11th, 2004, 06:46 AM

This thread is going out of focus.
After tomorrow Panavision will relese UHD camera, with interchangble lenses for 5000$ and i'll buy it but today i've got DVX100, that i've payed 4500€ (Pana reg price in Italy - something about one year of working on my regular part-time job) and i've got to match with it on my AMD 1700 NLE (OK i'm planning to upgrade..)
No one will refound me for the "DV jaggies".
Juan is giving to the regular DV community the possibilty to overlap their own limits obtaining more freedom and production capability staing with their own devices. Jaun is acting in a revolutionary point of wiev it is bettering the past without destroing it...
I'm thiking to film transfer but if i've got the money for this it's probably that i've got also the money to rent a Varicam...
Actually my production is all for TV but i need more control, precision, latitude and freedom to be pleased with DV (also with the progressive DVX) and i think that uncorrected, uncompressed 4:4:4 720P should work great for me!
So please stop stressing with other commerci-ative HD solutions ((it's hard to compete with the industries)) and starts new threads!
I don't know if Juan will share the project or if he want to estabilish the Pertierra Inc. and change him life selling 200 "HDVX gear" but i'm more interested in spending money to upgrade a well made and powerfull camera than to buy one HD 3/3" chip to hang me to the neck.
So please Juan stay with us, poor DV people ;)
P.S.
Juan: the clip that you've upload is too big for me (it takes more than 10 hours to download) and so i can't help you with this one but i could if you upload new RAW and DV stills (and so i can see your progress that are so exciting for me).
Mauro

Emmanuel Cambier · May 11th, 2004, 07:03 AM

I 'll second that strongly.There's too many great topics in this thread, please let's stay focused on Juan's DVX Mod.
No Hard feelings
Emmanuel
P.S.
By the way I can't import the pictures in FCHD, am I supposed to ?
It wont open in photshop 7 either.

May 10th, 2004, 08:27 PM	#589
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Obin: I like the idea of the Canon 35mm lenses as I have 3 nice EF primes, but not a mini35 adaptor which to me is only a good idea if you have a DV lens already. If you are going 1/2", why not 16mm cine lenses - lots of them on the used market and better focal length options, especially on the wide. Plus designed for motion picture and can take a wide ranges of cine accessories (follow focus, matte boxes etc.) __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

May 10th, 2004, 08:28 PM	#590
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Obin: Also, if you are serious, why not start on new thread here in Alternative Imaging? This one is really long already and your idea is a unique one worth highlighting on it's own. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

May 10th, 2004, 08:45 PM	#591
Randall Larsen Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 54	Les, and listmembers Some links on Kinetta, Panavision, and Viper: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040419/195264_1.html http://www.kinetta.com/home.php PanavisionSVI: 8.3 million pixels? http://www.1570.com/discus/messages/6/609.html?1036468994 http://www.panavisionsvi.com/technical_FAQ.htm Thomson Viper: try google.com search. Dalsa: www.dalsa.com/dc/dc.asp www.dalsa.com/news/news.asp?itemID=72 __________________ kind regards, Randall Larsen

May 11th, 2004, 03:12 AM	#598
Randall Larsen Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 54	Someone was asking about data sheets on the Alsens CMOS sensor. Perhaps Juan has one. In answer to my inquiry I was given only the development kit brochure. I was told schematics for the eval board would be available. The eval board hooks up to a Matrox frame grabber the Helios XCL [SFCL] that acquires at 680MB per second. http://www.matrox.com/imaging/products/helios_xcl/home.cfm apparently the eval board puts out either video or cameralink digital. The XCL is also used with the Dalsa Pantera 1024x1024 60fps cmos sensor camera: ftp://ftp.matrox.com/pub/imaging/helios/appnotes/dalsa/helios_1m60.pdf There is no application note posted for the Alsens Rockwell Chip. There is a lot of talk recently from Sony and JVC about Ultra HD television approaching 4k (by 2k) resolution. Dalsa's Origin camera has been doing it since NAB 2003. The Dalsa camera will rent for $3000 per day starting in November 2004. Sony supposedly is experimenting with a 10Mega pixel unit. Kinetta is sensor independent (using Alsens for now). Alsens still has the limitation that it is not 35mm image size. The pro-teknica's 35mm to 2/3" video interface goes for $23,000 plus sufficient motivation to find a 35mm chip. UHD may be overkill even for a film transfer (but may be useful for compositing and effects). In the movie theater it has been shown that the 4k by 4K resolution of 35mm film is not realized. The wiggle of the geneva movement in the projector reduces the on screen resolution to about 700 vertical lines. No one complains. I think resolution over 1080 in the original might not be visible in the theater unless it was digitally projected or projected in an IMAX blowup. Perhaps Juan can rent his modified DVX100 for say $1500 per day with suitable storage media. If no one can see much difference on a theater screen when a film transfer is projected, why would they pay $3000 per day? __________________ kind regards, Randall Larsen

May 11th, 2004, 06:46 AM	#599
Capra Mauro Tourist Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Asti - Italy Posts: 4	From DVX 4:4:4 uncompressed to HD pricing list. This thread is going out of focus. After tomorrow Panavision will relese UHD camera, with interchangble lenses for 5000$ and i'll buy it but today i've got DVX100, that i've payed 4500€ (Pana reg price in Italy - something about one year of working on my regular part-time job) and i've got to match with it on my AMD 1700 NLE (OK i'm planning to upgrade..) No one will refound me for the "DV jaggies". Juan is giving to the regular DV community the possibilty to overlap their own limits obtaining more freedom and production capability staing with their own devices. Jaun is acting in a revolutionary point of wiev it is bettering the past without destroing it... I'm thiking to film transfer but if i've got the money for this it's probably that i've got also the money to rent a Varicam... Actually my production is all for TV but i need more control, precision, latitude and freedom to be pleased with DV (also with the progressive DVX) and i think that uncorrected, uncompressed 4:4:4 720P should work great for me! So please stop stressing with other commerci-ative HD solutions ((it's hard to compete with the industries)) and starts new threads! I don't know if Juan will share the project or if he want to estabilish the Pertierra Inc. and change him life selling 200 "HDVX gear" but i'm more interested in spending money to upgrade a well made and powerfull camera than to buy one HD 3/3" chip to hang me to the neck. So please Juan stay with us, poor DV people ;) P.S. Juan: the clip that you've upload is too big for me (it takes more than 10 hours to download) and so i can't help you with this one but i could if you upload new RAW and DV stills (and so i can see your progress that are so exciting for me). Mauro

May 10th, 2004, 07:52 PM	#586
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Hey gang, I am going forward with my single cmos design HD cam. I will be using a chip that can output 1280x1024 at 60fps and you can do ROI at MUCH higher framerates...It's bayer filter but looks great and I can get a 3mp chip later on...the only downside is it will have a 1/2 inch chip not 2/3rd inch, 2/3rd is closer to 16mm film then 1/2inch and I was going to use a 16mm film body for the camera. Do you guys think that building a mini35 adaptor and using a standard tv macro on the camera would work well? I was thinking of using a standard Canon 35mmSLR lens mount for the unit so that lenses are CHEAP and easy to get....what about composites with this setup? how does the mini35 effect the FOV or the MM you should set for VFX shots? how much will the mini35 setup degrade the image? should I just stick with proven tv lenses designed for 1/2inch chips and forget about the DOF issues?

May 10th, 2004, 07:53 PM	#587
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	I'm actually in the process of getting 3 of the Altasens sensors for a pototype...i'll be getting the 720P ones however. I've been in the cinematography.com forums, but no one there seems to be interested in my project, so i don't really check that much.

May 10th, 2004, 08:22 PM	#588
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	hi everyone I am way over my head on this one. but i was just at a convention. "the vision show east" and I spoke with a number of reps for camera companies, and told them about our hope of building a camera. the chip he thought would work best was http://products.sel.sony.com/semi/PDF/ICX205AL.pdf I wish I had better understanding of this. every chip was being displayed at the show and the output from these cameras was stunning

May 10th, 2004, 09:00 PM	#592
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	you will get the crop factor like digital SLR if you use the 16mm lens with a 1/2inch chip I think more like 9mm not 16....I could do that but then your wides will not be as wide as they should...I REALLY wish they would use 2/3rd inch for that chip ;) hmm I did find one company using 2/3rd chips that can do 500fps! they record direct to RAM in the camera, full res 4000 frames to ram...small record time but good enough for a slo-mo shot I think

May 10th, 2004, 09:15 PM	#593
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	I think this chip excels in low light http://www.photonlines.com/PDF/CamPdf/Pixelfly.pdf

May 10th, 2004, 09:24 PM	#594
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	don't forget to read the fps...we need atleast 30fps for a video cam

May 10th, 2004, 09:44 PM	#595
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	I guess I had told the camera rep it would be a 24p camera. but if we used three of these would the specs be the same as a varicam. and the pdf claims the chip supports 30fps I realy think this guy was happy at what we were doing. and think he was stering me to the best chip. oh and his company didn,t even sell the chip, he sold cmos chips

May 10th, 2004, 09:53 PM	#596
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	your pdf lists a max f-rate of 15fps...gota get 24-30 and for slo-mo atleast 48

May 11th, 2004, 12:05 AM	#597
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Juan, Do you have a link to a data sheet describing the electrical aspects of the chip? It sounds like a nice part. It would be even better if they had a higher resolution one to allow great Bayer filtered single chip setups. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Juan P. Pertierra : I'm actually in the process of getting 3 of the Altasens sensors for a pototype...i'll be getting the 720P ones however. I've been in the cinematography.com forums, but no one there seems to be interested in my project, so i don't really check that much. -->>>

May 11th, 2004, 07:03 AM	#600
Emmanuel Cambier Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Paris, France Posts: 20	I 'll second that strongly.There's too many great topics in this thread, please let's stay focused on Juan's DVX Mod. No Hard feelings Emmanuel P.S. By the way I can't import the pictures in FCHD, am I supposed to ? It wont open in photshop 7 either.