4:4:4 12-bit Uncompressed DVX100

Juan P. Pertierra · March 28th, 2004, 09:54 PM

Ok, so let me first explain what this is.

This is a section of a frame, and of a very uninteresting scene, basically what my cannibalized DVX sees from it's test location. I know it is a bad test image, but you have all been waiting so i decided to release it.

This image ONLY contains about 77% of the complete color information. This is because 6 bits i can't fit into my current test card, and two bits seem to be disconnected for some reason.

There is also a hefty amount of obvious 'noise', which i am almost completely sure is caused by the disconnected bits. The noise is clearly seen as harsh black/red/etc dots peppered around specific areas.

It is slightly off focus, because i simply didn't :) Surprised i can even tell what i'm looking at....once again, no LCD no viewfinder.

I put the R,G,B layers together in photoshop. I used the default layer settings in photoshop, so this might not be the correct way of putting them together. If someone is a photoshop guru and knows how to combine three grayscale images into a color image perfectly, let me know.

Finally, a clear green hue can be seen which i beleive is normal of just about every image i have seen captured straight from CCD's, including the Thomson Viper.

I will be working this week on capturing a complete video clip, and somehow move my test setup to the balcony so I can capture a more interesting and hopefully colorful image.

Also, be sure to see it in an actual paint program like Photoshop, because browsers and preview programs perform smoothing:

http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~pertierr/DVXcolorcap.bmp

Juan P. Pertierra · March 28th, 2004, 10:19 PM

This is the same image, but after doing an 'auto levels' on each color layer independently.

http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~pertier...olorcap_AL.bmp

I think there is going to be remarkable freedom to manipulate the colors in every frame, pull detail from dark areas, etc. And this is only at 9 1/3 bits. :)

Obin Olson · March 28th, 2004, 11:02 PM

wow..very cool...i see what you mean about color depth with this "RAW" file.....this is VERY exciting! dv is such a HUGE limitation for a really GREAT camera and creative project shooting just because of the compression...I love the dvx100 and hate DV ;)....Juan you may find this kinda cool:

http://www.dv3productions.com/upload...low-focus-.jpg

I just got done building that unit...I will be selling it shortly...

when it comes time to build your "box" for the bottom of the camera feel free to talk with me if you want about the design and manufacture of your unit..

Jason Rodriguez · March 29th, 2004, 01:01 AM

Yowsers! (okay, sounds like Woody Allen, anyways)

There is a TON of latitude in those blacks!!! Dang!

BTW, I will agree that the best way to record these images is just save the RAW data-with a converter program convert them to whatever format you want later. That way you perserve the RAW data, and if better algorithms, noise suppression, etc. come out later, you can take advantage of those improvements without any of the potential loss that a specific file format might incur-even if it is 16bits-per-pixel.

I still don't think that Log encoding is as antiquated as you might believe. Thomson is doing it, Kinetta will be doing it, Dalsa is doing it-all the big boys are doing it. Even panasonic is psuedo-"doing it" with their F-REC mode in the Varicam's cinegamma, at least by the indications from a white paper released at this year's HPA tech retreat. But again, I will agree with you that the best place for any of those conversions is after the fact, after the RAW data has been recorded-then like you said, we can do whatever we want.

Juan P. Pertierra · March 29th, 2004, 02:12 PM

Oops! The images are actually 8-bit/channel! None of the programs I have can save TIFF or BMP in more than 8-bit color per RGB channel, so the file format is actually cutting precision down.

Anyone have any suggestions for standard graphics formats that support at least 12-bits or 16-bits per RGB channel i.e. it would be something like 36-bit color.

Juan

Ben Syverson · March 29th, 2004, 02:18 PM

16 bit tiff should be fine!

- ben

Juan P. Pertierra · March 29th, 2004, 02:22 PM

afaik TIFF can only do up to 24-bit color(8-bit RGB). 16-bit tiff would be 4-bit RGB with a 4-bit alpha channel...

Ben Syverson · March 29th, 2004, 02:31 PM

Check again... 16bit/pcc TIFF is an export option in Photoshop.

It's been a few months since I looked at the TIFF file format spec, but I think the TIFF file format itself supports *any* color depth. Of course, the specific TIFF implementations in most commercial software only support 8bit and under, since other color depths are so rare.

- ben

Milosz Krzyzaniak · March 29th, 2004, 03:11 PM

Try professional image standards, I don't know all their names (one of them is RLA). You can find them in After Effects, Combustion and so on. Most of them could be 10 or 12 bit.

Stephen van Vuuren · March 29th, 2004, 03:13 PM

On my Photoshop CS (and I'm pretty sure 7 and maybe 6) I've got 16-bit TIFF option.

Here's one of my 48-bit scans (it's raw corrected tunsten film shot in daylight) saved as a 16-bit TIFF. Note it is 32 MB in size.

http://www.sevensmilingsharks.com/cat.tif

Juan P. Pertierra · March 29th, 2004, 03:33 PM

I will check...but i have photoshop 6 and photoshop elements and neither of them allows me to specify bit depth in TIFF....

Stephen van Vuuren · March 29th, 2004, 03:39 PM

It might have been added in Photoshop 7.

PS. My upload barfed - I just restarted it. Should be done in 30 minutes.

Ben Syverson · March 29th, 2004, 04:34 PM

You don't specify the bit depth when you're exporting the TIFF -- you just open a 16bit document (or convert an 8bit one by going to Image->Mode->16 bits/channel) and then go to "Save as" and you'll see TIFF listed alongside Photoshop in the save options. It won't tell you it's saving as 16bit, but it is.

PS has been 16bit (in some capacity) since at least 6.0, so it shouldn't be a problem...

- ben

Eduardo Soto · March 30th, 2004, 09:50 AM

Provided that one is able to save these the data as TIFF or similar format, what are the steps to actually editing for video/film purposes?

es

Brad Abrahams · March 30th, 2004, 07:34 PM

Hi Jaun,

There are a number of image formats that allow for greater bit-depths. These include .HDR, OpenEXR (.EXR, open-source format developed by ILM that supports float, a plugin is available for photoshop and most compositing applications), Maya .IFF files, Cineon (.CIN, .KDK), .DPX, .RLA, .RPF, .SGI , and of course 16 bit and floating-point .TIF.

Not all of these are supported by Photoshop, but some do have plugins that enable photoshop to read them. Let me know if you'd like any specific information on any of the formats.

March 28th, 2004, 09:54 PM	#241
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	First ~very~ partial color frame Ok, so let me first explain what this is. This is a section of a frame, and of a very uninteresting scene, basically what my cannibalized DVX sees from it's test location. I know it is a bad test image, but you have all been waiting so i decided to release it. This image ONLY contains about 77% of the complete color information. This is because 6 bits i can't fit into my current test card, and two bits seem to be disconnected for some reason. There is also a hefty amount of obvious 'noise', which i am almost completely sure is caused by the disconnected bits. The noise is clearly seen as harsh black/red/etc dots peppered around specific areas. It is slightly off focus, because i simply didn't :) Surprised i can even tell what i'm looking at....once again, no LCD no viewfinder. I put the R,G,B layers together in photoshop. I used the default layer settings in photoshop, so this might not be the correct way of putting them together. If someone is a photoshop guru and knows how to combine three grayscale images into a color image perfectly, let me know. Finally, a clear green hue can be seen which i beleive is normal of just about every image i have seen captured straight from CCD's, including the Thomson Viper. I will be working this week on capturing a complete video clip, and somehow move my test setup to the balcony so I can capture a more interesting and hopefully colorful image. Also, be sure to see it in an actual paint program like Photoshop, because browsers and preview programs perform smoothing: http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~pertierr/DVXcolorcap.bmp

March 29th, 2004, 02:18 PM	#246
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	16 bit tiff 16 bit tiff should be fine! - ben

March 29th, 2004, 03:13 PM	#250
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	On my Photoshop CS (and I'm pretty sure 7 and maybe 6) I've got 16-bit TIFF option. Here's one of my 48-bit scans (it's raw corrected tunsten film shot in daylight) saved as a 16-bit TIFF. Note it is 32 MB in size. http://www.sevensmilingsharks.com/cat.tif __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

March 29th, 2004, 03:39 PM	#252
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	It might have been added in Photoshop 7. PS. My upload barfed - I just restarted it. Should be done in 30 minutes. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

March 28th, 2004, 10:19 PM	#242
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	This is the same image, but after doing an 'auto levels' on each color layer independently. http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~pertier...olorcap_AL.bmp I think there is going to be remarkable freedom to manipulate the colors in every frame, pull detail from dark areas, etc. And this is only at 9 1/3 bits. :)

March 28th, 2004, 11:02 PM	#243
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	wow..very cool...i see what you mean about color depth with this "RAW" file.....this is VERY exciting! dv is such a HUGE limitation for a really GREAT camera and creative project shooting just because of the compression...I love the dvx100 and hate DV ;)....Juan you may find this kinda cool: http://www.dv3productions.com/upload...low-focus-.jpg I just got done building that unit...I will be selling it shortly... when it comes time to build your "box" for the bottom of the camera feel free to talk with me if you want about the design and manufacture of your unit..

March 29th, 2004, 01:01 AM	#244
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Yowsers! (okay, sounds like Woody Allen, anyways) There is a TON of latitude in those blacks!!! Dang! BTW, I will agree that the best way to record these images is just save the RAW data-with a converter program convert them to whatever format you want later. That way you perserve the RAW data, and if better algorithms, noise suppression, etc. come out later, you can take advantage of those improvements without any of the potential loss that a specific file format might incur-even if it is 16bits-per-pixel. I still don't think that Log encoding is as antiquated as you might believe. Thomson is doing it, Kinetta will be doing it, Dalsa is doing it-all the big boys are doing it. Even panasonic is psuedo-"doing it" with their F-REC mode in the Varicam's cinegamma, at least by the indications from a white paper released at this year's HPA tech retreat. But again, I will agree with you that the best place for any of those conversions is after the fact, after the RAW data has been recorded-then like you said, we can do whatever we want.

March 29th, 2004, 02:12 PM	#245
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	Oops! The images are actually 8-bit/channel! None of the programs I have can save TIFF or BMP in more than 8-bit color per RGB channel, so the file format is actually cutting precision down. Anyone have any suggestions for standard graphics formats that support at least 12-bits or 16-bits per RGB channel i.e. it would be something like 36-bit color. Juan

March 29th, 2004, 02:22 PM	#247
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	afaik TIFF can only do up to 24-bit color(8-bit RGB). 16-bit tiff would be 4-bit RGB with a 4-bit alpha channel...

March 29th, 2004, 02:31 PM	#248
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Check again... 16bit/pcc TIFF is an export option in Photoshop. It's been a few months since I looked at the TIFF file format spec, but I think the TIFF file format itself supports any color depth. Of course, the specific TIFF implementations in most commercial software only support 8bit and under, since other color depths are so rare. - ben

March 29th, 2004, 03:11 PM	#249
Milosz Krzyzaniak Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 64	Try professional image standards, I don't know all their names (one of them is RLA). You can find them in After Effects, Combustion and so on. Most of them could be 10 or 12 bit.

March 29th, 2004, 03:33 PM	#251
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	I will check...but i have photoshop 6 and photoshop elements and neither of them allows me to specify bit depth in TIFF....

March 29th, 2004, 04:34 PM	#253
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	You don't specify the bit depth when you're exporting the TIFF -- you just open a 16bit document (or convert an 8bit one by going to Image->Mode->16 bits/channel) and then go to "Save as" and you'll see TIFF listed alongside Photoshop in the save options. It won't tell you it's saving as 16bit, but it is. PS has been 16bit (in some capacity) since at least 6.0, so it shouldn't be a problem... - ben

March 30th, 2004, 09:50 AM	#254
Eduardo Soto New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 13	Provided that one is able to save these the data as TIFF or similar format, what are the steps to actually editing for video/film purposes? es

March 30th, 2004, 07:34 PM	#255
Brad Abrahams Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 65	Hi Jaun, There are a number of image formats that allow for greater bit-depths. These include .HDR, OpenEXR (.EXR, open-source format developed by ILM that supports float, a plugin is available for photoshop and most compositing applications), Maya .IFF files, Cineon (.CIN, .KDK), .DPX, .RLA, .RPF, .SGI , and of course 16 bit and floating-point .TIF. Not all of these are supported by Photoshop, but some do have plugins that enable photoshop to read them. Let me know if you'd like any specific information on any of the formats.