Mini35 compatibility with the next version of Xl1S... the Xl2s ?

[Daniel Limoges]

Hi
The current mini35 will be able to adjust itself with the next Xl1S... the Xl2 ?
I ask this because I currently have the Xl1s Ntsc and I am about to get a used version B of the mini35 maybe a brand new.
So it's a lot of money and it would be good that Canon does not transform too much the physical aspect of the XL2 and that for the current owner and guinea-pig of the mini35 with XL1S !
I do not know if PS technik work with Canon about that ,but it would be preferable for us !? NO ?

And if Canon do not hold account of the mini35 and and it is what I think ,perhaps that PS technik could build a system of adjustment has to graft has the current mini35 for Canon XL2? no?
Is better to think of it in advance .
I recall out that it is much money and that PS technik must act as consequence of its customers !
thanks

[Adrian Douglas]

At this point any answer would be pure speculation, no one knows, and those who do are confined by non-disclosure agreements.

There's so much happening in the form of formats and technologies at the moment that any thing could happen.

[Daniel Limoges]

no answer, nobody?
It seems that the owners of the mini35 and Xl1S does not seem concerned to save their investment !?
it maybe that they have money necessary to invest in the next generation of Xl2 & mini2-35 ?

[Barry Green]

You cannot ask what you're asking. It's not in P+S Technik's ability to control what Canon will do!

Canon may never introduce an XL2.

Or they may introduce one tomorrow, but have changed the lens mount. And if they do, all XL1 owners (and mini35 owners) would be unable to use their accessories.

Or, they may introduce one next month, and all accessories will be 100% compatible, and you'll have no worries.

Or, they may introduce a high-definition HDV XL2, in which case the accessories may or may not be compatible.

Your concern should be addressed to Canon, not to ZGC or P+S Technik.

And yes, there will likely come a day when the progress of cameras means that the mini35 is rendered obsolete. That's what happens with technology. So make your buying decision based on TODAY, because you never know what tomorrow will bring.

[Chris Hurd]

Daniel, whether or not the Mini35 will work on the next generation of Canon depends entirely on two questions -- whether or not the next version of the camcorder has 1/3rd-inch CCD's, and whether or not the next version of the camcorder uses the existing XL lens mount. Only Canon knows those answers for sure. P+S Technik has no control over what Canon chooses to do with the next generation of camcorder that replaces the XL1S. as Barry Green correctly points out, your question should be addressed to Canon, not P+S Technik. Hope this helps,

[Charles Papert]

Daniel, the latest version of the Mini35 is adaptable to various cameras by means of interchangeable optics at the back end. Thus it is reasonably safe to assume that even if Canon changes the lens mount on a future system, the purchase of the current 400 series Mini35 would be compatible once P+S designs a compatible mount. The older versions would not be compatible, although there may be a possibility of having the mount rebuilt. As the guys have pointed out, it's all conjecture until the camera comes out.

[Daniel Limoges]

Ok !
I understand.
You are right , I put these question voluntarily, so that we are not in the unknown factor, now you gave to me acceptable answer ,for this moment.

I ask this because I currently have the Xl1s Ntsc and I am about to get a used version B of the mini35 maybe a brand new.
If it's a brand new ,it will be probably series 400 !

So the series 400 brings to me a new question ,but a strange question !

When series 300 arrived ,the price was 8500 $ This price had been evaluated according to the financial investment brought has research for the product series 300 development !
So the series 400 arrived, with a better technology ,but the price seems to be the same 8500 $ for a brand new!
Believe me ,if the engineers would have worked very hard for the design of the mini35 ,OR NOT ,the price would not have changed because the price of the mini35 is not based on technology but rather towards a group of people !

it is what I think but the world is made thus !

It is for that ,that there is budget to allocate has research in all the companies

[Charles Papert]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the question (I can't actually find a question in there), but it seems like you are frustrated at the idea of a company trying to make money. Rather than rest on their laurels with a groundbreaking product, P+S has continued to make improvements and new versions.

The only way the price would be likely to come down is for a competitive product to be introduced that performs similarly to the Mini35 at a lower price point. In the face of losing sales, the retail price for the Mini35 could potentially drop at that point. While they have a monopoly in this product, I wouldn't expect it any time soon.

[Daniel Limoges]

Yes it's true , i am a little to frustrate ,& i do not believe that is towards ps technik ,but towards all these people of business which smells the GOOD THING !

Did you see a difference between the 300 and the 400 on the level of the image quality ? This will determine my final choice!

So excuse me again
daniel limoges

[John Francis]

I have recently acquired a used 300 version. It took me a long time to make up my mind but it was worth the wait. I have seen sample shots of both systems and they are exactly the same. Good luck with your projects.

[Mizell Wilson]

Daniel,

There is every hope that the XL2 will be compatible with both the 300 and 400 series units from P+S. As far as an official corporate standpoint, I have a feeling that P+S would say that only the 400 series will be compatible but it is all up to Canon in the end. If certain things are done it could mean that no new connecting kit is needed.

It is sort of unclear which point you are tyring to make about price, but even at $8,550 you have to realize that P+S is simply not making that much money on these units. Two factors are controlling the price...the first is as Charles mentioned, without a competitive product, P+S has no pressure to lower the price. The other factor is quantity. These devices are still hand assembled in small amounts, basically to order. If the numbers ever dictated an automated process, the price would also drop.

mizell

[Paul Bettner]

That's kind of a catch-22... I think if the price dropped, the numbers might increase to warrant an automated production run. It seems like there's a whole heck of a lot of people that would buy one if the price was more like $1000 with a universal adaptor kit... Then again, change is in the air - with people figuring out how to build their own home-brew version of this device, it's only a matter of time before the price is driven down by virtue of competing commercial products from enterprising individuals.

This coming from someone who just rented one for $400 this past weekend :-)

paulb

[Charles Papert]

Obviously it would be great if there was an adaptor priced within the range of most XL1 accessories that allowed the use of cine lenses (I consider the use of still camera lenses an interesting novelty, but not practical for motion picture work). Considering that the feature set and performance of the Mini35 has improved through its four generations, I would be surprised to see a truly competitive commercially available product for a substantially cheaper price point. By "competitive" I mean robust and reliable, and as optically transparent as possible. The Mini35 as a rental unit is by no means cheap, but it is not that radical when considered alongside the cost of renting a full set of lenses and accessories to go with it, as well as the lighting package, production design etc. that will complement the images and make the whole project worth having used the Mini35 in the first place.

I will pontificate a bit here, addressed to no-one in particular. The emergence of digital filmmaking as an alternative to traditional celluloid-based filmmaking has brought a radical price slash to the bottom line in the areas of camera gear, stock, processing, telecine etc. (let's assume a final distribution on digital media, not output to film). However, I find that most digital filmmakers who did not migrate from the film world are unaware of just how much they are saving, and want still more. It's not enough that the cameras only cost $4000, the stock costs are virtually nothing, there are $300 stabilizers and absurdly comprehensive $1000 editing solutions--all of which was unheard of just a few years ago. I seem to constantly hear "why does this have to cost so much?" even as prices fall and incredibly low-cost solutions materialize daily.

Unfortunately, there appears to be more of a fascination with owning and building and simulating toys than with learning how to make films that are interesting and/or entertaining. It's probably the nature of the beast. So much dazzling and shiny gear is available and almost within reach, it's hard to resist.

Stepping off the soapbox. Happy holidays, all.

[Don Berube]

I'm totally with you on that one Charles.

It gets frustrating to hear people complain about the cost of some of the products out there. Especially the cameras, which are so inexpensive considering what they do these days - in comparison to what was available just 5 years ago.

It is also really frustrating to hear some complain that they cannot make their "films" because they can't afford to buy the camera, or the lighting, or the sound gear, etc...

It's downright extremely frustrating to hear people complain about how they can't even afford to rent the gear...

So, they are left with their "story" with "no budget" to produce it, let alone a "low budget". Some of them even outright say it's "not fair' that they cannot make their "film",,, yet when you ask them if they have a script, many say "no",,, then you ask them if they even have a synopsis and again the answer is "no"... and if you ask them if they have any storyboards at all and many will say "no"... yet they are certain they want to do a film-out to 35mm... and many of them want to do it with a $2000 camera. Yet, they have no clear concept of the workflow involved with striking an answer print, let alone a release print - nor did they even sit down to familiarize themselves with the costs involved with post-production of their "flm", let alone the costs involved with striking to film. All too often, beginners neglect to factor and summarize the budget for post-production, let alone distribution.

I still say that for many of the beginners here, they are better off spending their money taking "hands-on" 16mm film production classes while these classes are still available at places such as the Boston Film and Video Foundation or even the International Film, Television & Digital Media Workshops in Rockport, Maine. They have classes for beginners there as well. In fact, I often times insist that they do this as it is what they need. It will help them immensely as they need to learn the craft. It just gets frustrating, really frustrating,,, when then they say "How come the classes are so expensive???"

The "Instant Gratifiication Factor" of some people these days is so overwhelming that it makes you wonder if they understand the value in anything anymore. What happened to paying your dues, apprenticeship and learning the craft? This takes years. It seems like some just want everything to be cheap and easy, and they will only use whatever and whoever is as cheap as possible.

Wait a minute here... !!!
What happened to my Christmas Spirit??? Doh!!!

That's it, I'm going to sit down and watch "Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol" now. I love that Classic Tales series from the 60's. :o)
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...1.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Merry Christmas everyone!

- don

[Mizell Wilson]

Here, Here Don and Charles,

I am currently working with Ed Burns who is considering the Mini35/DVX100 for use for all of his future movies. Will Rexer, a very well known Aaton DP, is shooting the pic. Both are amazed at how cheaply and easily we have blown through the test shoot days. We did easily 60 setups in Manhatten in one day...ONE DAY. Now granted, the production is at no level like the one Charles worked on, which could never have achieved that status (correct me if I'm wrong Charles) but the images were as if we shot with 35mm...which would have never, in any fantasy, been able to achieve that type of shoot day.

The point being is that a lot of this has to do with perception. As Charles points out...people coming from the film world (read as studio system) are astounded at how cheap these systems are for the results. People coming from the MiniDV world gag at the price.

So as Don points out...forget the dreams and get serious. Start to learn the budgeting process and see what costs are involved...you are absolutely going to see that renting the Mini35 with lenses and sticks is going to be a fraction of getting your movie just to the point where a blowup might be an option, let alone get it to DVD.

I don't want to discourage the up and coming digital filmmakers out there, but the revolution is coming and it is not cheap. Video is only cheaper if you want cheap looking video! Film evolved as an artisans craft and as such, has a very robust, and often strict, vocabulary that has just never been duplicated in the traditional "video" world. You are plunging yourself head first into the one of the harddest industries to make a living in...it is not for the faint of heart or those looking for 7 hour days. It only looks easy because professionals are working very hard to make it look that way.

So don't fret...forget your cares for the next couple of weeks and enjoy the holidays. After the new year, as a last christmas gift to yourself (or as replacement gifts for your returns) go get Ralph S. Singleton's 3 books:

Film Budgeting: Or, How Much It Will Cost to Shoot Your Movie?

Film Scheduling: Or, How Long Will It Take to Shoot Your Movie?

Film Scheduling/Film Budgeting Workbook

and start seeing what you're bottom lines could be and bring the big picture of your production into focus.

Then determine if there is even a post house in your market that is capable of what you want to do. Then call them for quotes. Ask them about the HD upres for color correction before blowup. Ask them how much HD titling is. Your are soon going to have more headaches then the cost of the Mini35.

So Peace to everyone and wishes for a safe and happy holiday...I am retreating behind my tomato shield :)

mizell


PS...someone should let Santa and Hanukuh Harry know that we seem to be all set with soapboxes this year :P

PPS...if we're going to get too much further onto costs involved we need to make a new thread or go to the thread that speaks about the "wallet" point of the Mini35.