P+S Technik Mini 35 Adaptor - What do you want to know?

Riley Florence · August 15th, 2002, 10:02 AM

so heres a new person question, but when you blow up DV to film to be shown on the "silver screen", it doesnt look so hot, but with the mini 35 would it look good?

Jim Giberti · August 15th, 2002, 10:32 AM

<<Jim, I've changed your user name to Jim Giberti. Hope this helps>>

Thanks Chris...uh, about that "new boot" thing.

Martin Munthe · August 15th, 2002, 12:10 PM

Riley,

standard video resololution will always be what it is. Even if you shot it with better lenses. The difference in resolution quality will be minimal when blowing up to film. Good lenses has a tendency to provide a slightly sharper image but you don't get away from the fact that you are aquiring on DV tapes in 5:1 compression 4:1:1 color space.

Using better lenses and concentrating on lighting will ad artistic value -- not image resolution.

Riley Florence · August 15th, 2002, 01:02 PM

thank you! thats what i thought, but i just had to make sure!

Jim Giberti · August 15th, 2002, 03:15 PM

<<Using better lenses and concentrating on lighting will ad artistic value -- not image resolution.>>

Well, yes and no. Better glass will definitely produce a higher resolution than what most people experience with their XL configuration (assuming most people are using the stock 16x Canon lens). To see proof of this, visit Scott Billups' pixelmonger.com and look at his test chart comparisons of different cameras: specifically the difference between the stock XL1 and the XL1 with the Fujinon 14x multicoated lens with the B&W CRT VF setup.

Perhaps it would be better to say that the XL is not capable of displaying the resolution that the 35mm lenses can produce...but that's different than saying that the 35mm glass simply provides an artistic value. The images are of a superior quality with the higher end glass and viewfinder capable of getting the maximum focus those lenses produce.

Clayton Farr · August 15th, 2002, 05:08 PM

Justin/Martin/Other owners & renters:

Upon following this thread I've been doing some more poking around the web on the Mini35. I finally found some reasonably close-up pix of it which brought up a couple of questions:

There looks to be a numbered barrel that connects the Mini35 to the XL1 body. What are the numbers about/for? (Is this also used when using with 'lensed' camera like PD150?)

It also looks like there is some sort of cable coming out of the lower rear of the unit. Is this for power? Does it draw from the camera battery or does it have its own? (Does it take a heavy toll on battery?)

Lastly, with the spinning element (ground glass) does the unit generate any noticable noise or camera movement?

Thanks in advance for any additional info - and thanks to everyone sharing their insights!

Clayton

Jim Giberti · August 15th, 2002, 09:47 PM

<<There looks to be a numbered barrel that connects the Mini35 to the XL1 body. What are the numbers about/for?>>

This is the iris on the P&S. It allows you to use the optics of your lens to form the 35mm image on the ground glass. The relay iris on the P&S sends that image to the Canon.

<< (Is this also used when using with 'lensed' camera like PD150?)>>

I honestly don't know how they work around that glass.

<<It also looks like there is some sort of cable coming out of the lower rear of the unit. Is this for power? Does it draw from the camera battery or does it have its own?>>

Yes...that cable comes from the battery plate on the back of the rods and it runs off a standard Canon battery (like the Nebtek 5" color monitor attached to my XL which is cool) The P&S needs power to run the motor that spins the ground glass. It doesn't draw much...you could probably run for 2- 3 days of shooting on a single charge. Also, if your lenses are open 5.6 and below, you usually don't need to spin the glass (especially at shorter focal lengths).

The other thing with my setup is that the B&W viewfinder requires a battery to run the CRT, so I end up with a battery on the Canon. the Nebtek 5", the P&S and the viewfinder. Fortunately the B&W comes wth an adapter that allows the XL1 power supply to run both units. Also, P&S developed a seperate system to accomodate the B&W viewfinder system that moves the battery around, along with the VF itself and combines the Mini 35 power and the VF power.

<<Lastly, with the spinning element (ground glass) does the unit generate any noticable noise or camera movement?>>

You definitely wouldn't want to use the on-camera mic for audio. It's pretty unoticeable to the naked ear, but there's a hum that comes through to the mic.

Chris Hurd · August 15th, 2002, 09:52 PM

Just to add, on a shoot where you're going to the effort and expense of using the P+S Technik adapter, most likely you're going to do your sound the *right* way and get the audio from anywhere else other than on the camera itself. So the sound from the camera shouldn't be an issue on a serious shoot.

Justin Chin · August 16th, 2002, 01:23 PM

ClaytonF:
The relay iris you mention also allows you to slow down the image without affecting DoF. This is a great feature since you can avoid the use of ND glass in front of the lens.

As for the PD150, I believe it just sends the image through the 150's lens set up.

Jim:
Shooting at 5.6 is tricky. I've done that and have then seen the ground glass spinning on the image. Not a good thing. I basically shoot wide open. Then there is no chance of seeing the glass.

Clayton Farr · August 16th, 2002, 02:24 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Justin Chin : I basically shoot wide open. Then there is no chance of seeing the glass. -->>>

Wide open on the attached lens or the rear P+S lens? (I would assume you mean the attached lens, right?)

Do you feel that you lose any quality shooting at this end of the lens? (Going by the rule of thumb that most lenses work best in the middle range of the f-stops...) But then again maybe this is negligible due to using a high end lens anyway and the DV recording format.

The catch would be if you *have* to shoot wide open in order to not see the ground glass - is this what you're saying?

Just curious - thanks for sharing your experiences,
Clayton

Jim Giberti · August 16th, 2002, 05:32 PM

<<Jim:
Shooting at 5.6 is tricky. I've done that and have then seen the ground glass spinning on the image. Not a good thing. I basically shoot wide open. Then there is no chance of seeing the glass.>>

Hey Justin...absolutely, especially with a longer lens. The spinning glass is most noticeable on certain backgrounds at maybe 85mm and up in my experience. It's nice to get the lens in it's sweet spot (f4 - f5.6) if you can, but you're right, I've found myself shooting most stuff wide open or f2-f3ish. Also, the P&S eats a couple of stops, so you're not technically wide open anyway (which is why 5.6 is questionable). That said. P&S and ZGC state that shooting 5.6 and below shouldn't require spinning the glass at all.

By the way, wonderful images I've seen of your work. How can I see the finished project?

Istvan Toth · August 16th, 2002, 08:29 PM

Hi, I'm trying to participate in this forum, I learned so much here that is only correct if I become somehoww also active. I do have a XL1, XL1s and the mini35. The last I bought mostly based on the good reaction it had here in this forum.
I live in Italy but study now in the NewYork Filmcademy in LosAngeles. For my tesis film I wanted to use the mini35.

I did yesterday my first tests (Zeiss prime lenses and Cooke zoom 20-100), and I was more then confused. I noticed the spinning groundglas down till halfway between F-stop 2.8 and 4.

Did somebody had similar problems?
Thanks Istvan

Jim Giberti · August 17th, 2002, 10:17 AM

<<I did yesterday my first tests (Zeiss prime lenses and Cooke zoom 20-100), and I was more then confused. I noticed the spinning groundglas down till halfway between F-stop 2.8 and 4.
>>

Hey Istvan,

Jim Giberti · August 17th, 2002, 10:30 AM

<<I did yesterday my first tests (Zeiss prime lenses and Cooke zoom 20-100), and I was more then confused. I noticed the spinning groundglas down till halfway between F-stop 2.8 and 4.
>>

Hey Istvan,
Let's try that again. What focal length were you shooting at when you saw the glass...was it with the Cooke zoom? What was the subject? IF it was a well lit scene, did you shoot it ith the motor off? You shouldn't have to use the motor on a good deal of your shooting.

I'm about to get my first "off day" from a pretty intensive edit crunch in the studio, and I plan on shooting a bunch of footage around the farm the next 2 days. But here's a quick example. I was heading out yesterday around sunset sun had dropped behind the mountain...low diffused light). There were 2 foals in pasture that inspired me to run back to the house and throw the P&S on my shuolder. It had the 85mm f/1.4 on it. I shot about 15 minutes of them close and far, against a pasture background and got no noticeable grain with the motor off and no spinning when I tested with it on. I shot everything open due to the fairly low light.

Justin Chin · August 17th, 2002, 10:38 AM

If you don't have the motor on and you pan or tilt, you'll see grain, with any focal length. I NEVER shut the motor off, because of the noticeable grain in the ground glass. It's like shooting through a dirty lens.

August 15th, 2002, 10:02 AM	#31
Riley Florence Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 61	so heres a new person question, but when you blow up DV to film to be shown on the "silver screen", it doesnt look so hot, but with the mini 35 would it look good? __________________ -------------------------- -Riley Florence SLC, Utah. http://www.secondsection.com

August 15th, 2002, 12:10 PM	#33
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	Riley, standard video resololution will always be what it is. Even if you shot it with better lenses. The difference in resolution quality will be minimal when blowing up to film. Good lenses has a tendency to provide a slightly sharper image but you don't get away from the fact that you are aquiring on DV tapes in 5:1 compression 4:1:1 color space. Using better lenses and concentrating on lighting will ad artistic value -- not image resolution. __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

August 15th, 2002, 01:02 PM	#34
Riley Florence Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 61	thank you! thats what i thought, but i just had to make sure! __________________ -------------------------- -Riley Florence SLC, Utah. http://www.secondsection.com

August 15th, 2002, 09:52 PM	#38
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Just to add, on a shoot where you're going to the effort and expense of using the P+S Technik adapter, most likely you're going to do your sound the right way and get the audio from anywhere else other than on the camera itself. So the sound from the camera shouldn't be an issue on a serious shoot. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 16th, 2002, 01:23 PM	#39
Justin Chin Major Player Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 227	ClaytonF: The relay iris you mention also allows you to slow down the image without affecting DoF. This is a great feature since you can avoid the use of ND glass in front of the lens. As for the PD150, I believe it just sends the image through the 150's lens set up. Jim: Shooting at 5.6 is tricky. I've done that and have then seen the ground glass spinning on the image. Not a good thing. I basically shoot wide open. Then there is no chance of seeing the glass. __________________ justin www.monsterrocket.com Filmmaker \| Cinematographer

August 15th, 2002, 10:32 AM	#32
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	<<Jim, I've changed your user name to Jim Giberti. Hope this helps>> Thanks Chris...uh, about that "new boot" thing.

August 15th, 2002, 03:15 PM	#35
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	<<Using better lenses and concentrating on lighting will ad artistic value -- not image resolution.>> Well, yes and no. Better glass will definitely produce a higher resolution than what most people experience with their XL configuration (assuming most people are using the stock 16x Canon lens). To see proof of this, visit Scott Billups' pixelmonger.com and look at his test chart comparisons of different cameras: specifically the difference between the stock XL1 and the XL1 with the Fujinon 14x multicoated lens with the B&W CRT VF setup. Perhaps it would be better to say that the XL is not capable of displaying the resolution that the 35mm lenses can produce...but that's different than saying that the 35mm glass simply provides an artistic value. The images are of a superior quality with the higher end glass and viewfinder capable of getting the maximum focus those lenses produce.

August 15th, 2002, 05:08 PM	#36
Clayton Farr Contributor Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 94	Justin/Martin/Other owners & renters: Upon following this thread I've been doing some more poking around the web on the Mini35. I finally found some reasonably close-up pix of it which brought up a couple of questions: There looks to be a numbered barrel that connects the Mini35 to the XL1 body. What are the numbers about/for? (Is this also used when using with 'lensed' camera like PD150?) It also looks like there is some sort of cable coming out of the lower rear of the unit. Is this for power? Does it draw from the camera battery or does it have its own? (Does it take a heavy toll on battery?) Lastly, with the spinning element (ground glass) does the unit generate any noticable noise or camera movement? Thanks in advance for any additional info - and thanks to everyone sharing their insights! Clayton

August 15th, 2002, 09:47 PM	#37
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	<<There looks to be a numbered barrel that connects the Mini35 to the XL1 body. What are the numbers about/for?>> This is the iris on the P&S. It allows you to use the optics of your lens to form the 35mm image on the ground glass. The relay iris on the P&S sends that image to the Canon. << (Is this also used when using with 'lensed' camera like PD150?)>> I honestly don't know how they work around that glass. <<It also looks like there is some sort of cable coming out of the lower rear of the unit. Is this for power? Does it draw from the camera battery or does it have its own?>> Yes...that cable comes from the battery plate on the back of the rods and it runs off a standard Canon battery (like the Nebtek 5" color monitor attached to my XL which is cool) The P&S needs power to run the motor that spins the ground glass. It doesn't draw much...you could probably run for 2- 3 days of shooting on a single charge. Also, if your lenses are open 5.6 and below, you usually don't need to spin the glass (especially at shorter focal lengths). The other thing with my setup is that the B&W viewfinder requires a battery to run the CRT, so I end up with a battery on the Canon. the Nebtek 5", the P&S and the viewfinder. Fortunately the B&W comes wth an adapter that allows the XL1 power supply to run both units. Also, P&S developed a seperate system to accomodate the B&W viewfinder system that moves the battery around, along with the VF itself and combines the Mini 35 power and the VF power. <<Lastly, with the spinning element (ground glass) does the unit generate any noticable noise or camera movement?>> You definitely wouldn't want to use the on-camera mic for audio. It's pretty unoticeable to the naked ear, but there's a hum that comes through to the mic.

August 16th, 2002, 02:24 PM	#40
Clayton Farr Contributor Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 94	<<<-- Originally posted by Justin Chin : I basically shoot wide open. Then there is no chance of seeing the glass. -->>> Wide open on the attached lens or the rear P+S lens? (I would assume you mean the attached lens, right?) Do you feel that you lose any quality shooting at this end of the lens? (Going by the rule of thumb that most lenses work best in the middle range of the f-stops...) But then again maybe this is negligible due to using a high end lens anyway and the DV recording format. The catch would be if you have to shoot wide open in order to not see the ground glass - is this what you're saying? Just curious - thanks for sharing your experiences, Clayton

August 16th, 2002, 05:32 PM	#41
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	<<Jim: Shooting at 5.6 is tricky. I've done that and have then seen the ground glass spinning on the image. Not a good thing. I basically shoot wide open. Then there is no chance of seeing the glass.>> Hey Justin...absolutely, especially with a longer lens. The spinning glass is most noticeable on certain backgrounds at maybe 85mm and up in my experience. It's nice to get the lens in it's sweet spot (f4 - f5.6) if you can, but you're right, I've found myself shooting most stuff wide open or f2-f3ish. Also, the P&S eats a couple of stops, so you're not technically wide open anyway (which is why 5.6 is questionable). That said. P&S and ZGC state that shooting 5.6 and below shouldn't require spinning the glass at all. By the way, wonderful images I've seen of your work. How can I see the finished project?

August 16th, 2002, 08:29 PM	#42
Istvan Toth Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Venice-Italy Posts: 52	Hi, I'm trying to participate in this forum, I learned so much here that is only correct if I become somehoww also active. I do have a XL1, XL1s and the mini35. The last I bought mostly based on the good reaction it had here in this forum. I live in Italy but study now in the NewYork Filmcademy in LosAngeles. For my tesis film I wanted to use the mini35. I did yesterday my first tests (Zeiss prime lenses and Cooke zoom 20-100), and I was more then confused. I noticed the spinning groundglas down till halfway between F-stop 2.8 and 4. Did somebody had similar problems? Thanks Istvan __________________ Istvan Toth RED #1161

August 17th, 2002, 10:17 AM	#43
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	<<I did yesterday my first tests (Zeiss prime lenses and Cooke zoom 20-100), and I was more then confused. I noticed the spinning groundglas down till halfway between F-stop 2.8 and 4. >> Hey Istvan,

August 17th, 2002, 10:30 AM	#44
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	<<I did yesterday my first tests (Zeiss prime lenses and Cooke zoom 20-100), and I was more then confused. I noticed the spinning groundglas down till halfway between F-stop 2.8 and 4. >> Hey Istvan, Let's try that again. What focal length were you shooting at when you saw the glass...was it with the Cooke zoom? What was the subject? IF it was a well lit scene, did you shoot it ith the motor off? You shouldn't have to use the motor on a good deal of your shooting. I'm about to get my first "off day" from a pretty intensive edit crunch in the studio, and I plan on shooting a bunch of footage around the farm the next 2 days. But here's a quick example. I was heading out yesterday around sunset sun had dropped behind the mountain...low diffused light). There were 2 foals in pasture that inspired me to run back to the house and throw the P&S on my shuolder. It had the 85mm f/1.4 on it. I shot about 15 minutes of them close and far, against a pasture background and got no noticeable grain with the motor off and no spinning when I tested with it on. I shot everything open due to the fairly low light.

August 17th, 2002, 10:38 AM	#45
Justin Chin Major Player Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 227	If you don't have the motor on and you pan or tilt, you'll see grain, with any focal length. I NEVER shut the motor off, because of the noticeable grain in the ground glass. It's like shooting through a dirty lens. __________________ justin www.monsterrocket.com Filmmaker \| Cinematographer