Homemade 35mm Adapter

Filip Kovcin · December 21st, 2003, 06:58 AM

i got mine frosted cd from guy who is selling lot of cds.

he can't answer me exactly what brand it is, definitelly NOT TDK!
a while ago - when i had a closer look i noticed that surface is VERY similar to frosted foil used to cover windows etc. in offices, homes... (you know - already prepared, with transparent glue on it, stickers type)
i just compared it now with a foil and it looks really close. i do not know about the picture quality, but will check that tonight when i'm finising "my" agus 35.

all the best,

"keep agusing!!!"

filip

Peter Sciretta · December 21st, 2003, 10:56 AM

This may be a stupid question...

But how are people connecting wires? ie the motor to batteries? I've tried duct and electrical tape and it doesn't seem to hold that good?

Jon Kamps · December 21st, 2003, 11:00 AM

I think solder would be the matrial of choice

Jim Lafferty · December 21st, 2003, 12:10 PM

Well, I got 'er functional today -- she's not pretty yet, and without a rail system in place the image shakes a bit much (going in and out of focus with it.) But, what can I say, I'm proud:

http://ideaspora.net/agus35/agustest.mov

(12.8mb Quicktime 6)

- jim

Don Berube · December 21st, 2003, 12:58 PM

I am sure that someone has already pointed this out earlier, but here goes. The frosted plastic that you are using in place of real optical ground glass is deteriorating the image too much. It is also causing you to lose too much light. Earlier, someone had posted something to the effect that "if you use ground glass, the image will be too bright". Well, if that is the case with this design, then the design is flawed and should be reworked so that you can use real optical ground glass. So far, none of the sample clips I have seen show an image that does not look degraded by the plastic. No offense, just an observation.

- don

Jim Lafferty · December 21st, 2003, 01:10 PM

Yeah, but expense and weight have to be factored into the design, as well.

I've got about five "ground glass" CD's here -- they cost me nothing more than I'd long ago spent on CDR's. If I drop them, or decide I want to mess with them to get different optical effects, I don't have to sweat their replacement and the costs incurred.

The question isn't (for me at least) 'How can I get the best image possible, at the expense of other considerations?', it's more 'How can I create an image that's acceptably interesting with the things I have at hand?'

- jim

Don Berube · December 21st, 2003, 01:23 PM

I would still say that as long as you limit yourself to using plastic in the image chain, you will be self-defeating yourself. Why waste all that energy trying to produce an "acceptable" image with plastic when you have the potential for an excellent quality image with glass? It's a simple thing that we have known for years - plastic does not produce good results in photography.

You mention "expense" - what is your budget cap? C'mon save yourself a lot of frustration and wasted effort, spend a little more and put some real glass in there. I dare say that it is not impossible to find an affordable glass solution by modifying the design a bit. Regarding finding an affordable piece of glass - has anyone thought of using a 2mm thick 4x4 or 3x3 mist or fog filter from LEE Filters or Cokin? Or perhaps an even-more-affordable resin filter from LEE or Cokin? Even a resin filter would be much better than plastic - but you really should use glass.

Again, no offense implied here, I'm somewhat impressed with what you are doing, really. It's just that the image is too deteriorated.

- don

Stewart McDonald · December 21st, 2003, 01:43 PM

I'd say the new footage that Agus posted is very acceptable for what I want, but I'm more interested in a movie look than high detail. Even if it has some grain (which I can't spot anyway), it adds to the effect.

Agus Casse · December 21st, 2003, 03:01 PM

New version with higher res...

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mmtestBETA.wmv

Don Berube is right we are loosing a lot of light and considering that still havent installed a dove prism to correct the image. Still, cost vs performace is amazing... DOF is great, my TRV18 is kicking ass with no modifications or aditional investment.

hey Jim, thanks for that credit dude !!

i see that you are having some vibration problems, are you using a cd motor ? did you sanded the cd or was a already frosted one ?

Peter Sciretta · December 21st, 2003, 03:13 PM

I think don is also right but I think centering the disc could be a problem with glass... The cd disc is easy with a cd motor

BTW -

DON - I worked as a PA on your short film 2 years ago... did you ever finish it? It was a surprise to see you on this thread...

Agus Casse · December 21st, 2003, 03:16 PM

i think they can cut the glass center just like the cd, i saw some stores that have some glass windows with little holes. i will try up with glass next week if i am lucky, i really need to improve this for the comercial version, also i am still working in flipping the image.

Peter Sciretta · December 21st, 2003, 03:20 PM

agus - I think people would be satisfied in a commercial version if you could find either:

A. an output from the cameras RCA's that will flip the image normal for an external monitor/lcd

B. If you include an LCD that will flip everything.

I like the idea of the prism but I think it will cause too many problems plus it will just be one more thing the light must go through and will bring the light levels down yet again.

I don't think most people have a problem with flipping in post... the problem is to see everything as it is (right side up) while filming.

Agus Casse · December 21st, 2003, 03:22 PM

mmm

who else thinks about this ? that would be easier and cheaper, just to buy a LCD monitor that flips it than the prism.

Don Berube · December 21st, 2003, 03:27 PM

Agus, are those your sons or your nephews? They seem like good kids. You should name your device after them to reward them for tolerating your chasing them around with your device, which I am sure looks a little scary to them. hehe

Just curious if you could find a way to control the exposure more - so that you are not so overexposed in the white areas of the frame? It would be cool to see a nice flat, balanced exposure.

Is that sound I hear being made by your device? Is there a way you could deaden that sound? Reminds me of an old class at MIT, where the engineering students were given a Braun coffee bean grinder and the goal was to see who could figure out the best way to make the grinder perform as silently as possible. One solution was to deaden the walls of the coffee bean grinder with neoprene and to use a motor which was slightly over-rated for the task of grinding coffee beans. They lowered the voltage to that motor, so that it ran at only the torque needed to grind the beans and it was indeed a bit quieter. I would say that plastic shell of your device is resonating and somewhat amplifying the sound of the motor. Perhaps gluing a thin piece of neoprene inside the walls of your device (or around the motor?) would help mask the sound.

- don

Agus Casse · December 21st, 2003, 03:40 PM

yeah those are my newphies they are twins. :)

The problem really is that the mic of the TRV is less than 3 inches from the motor, so it is silent but the mic is too close. it can be solve using an external mic with no trouble. about the exposure, my bad i was so excited using the device that i didnt set it manually. but well :) i am so haappy that the optics are working well, and the image is not deformed like my first versions, and also there is no vigneting.

Don what do you think about a commercial version ? is flipping the image critical ?

December 21st, 2003, 06:58 AM	#481
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	frosted cd i got mine frosted cd from guy who is selling lot of cds. he can't answer me exactly what brand it is, definitelly NOT TDK! a while ago - when i had a closer look i noticed that surface is VERY similar to frosted foil used to cover windows etc. in offices, homes... (you know - already prepared, with transparent glue on it, stickers type) i just compared it now with a foil and it looks really close. i do not know about the picture quality, but will check that tonight when i'm finising "my" agus 35. all the best, "keep agusing!!!" filip

December 21st, 2003, 12:10 PM	#484
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Well, I got 'er functional today -- she's not pretty yet, and without a rail system in place the image shakes a bit much (going in and out of focus with it.) But, what can I say, I'm proud: http://ideaspora.net/agus35/agustest.mov (12.8mb Quicktime 6) - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

December 21st, 2003, 12:58 PM	#485
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	I am sure that someone has already pointed this out earlier, but here goes. The frosted plastic that you are using in place of real optical ground glass is deteriorating the image too much. It is also causing you to lose too much light. Earlier, someone had posted something to the effect that "if you use ground glass, the image will be too bright". Well, if that is the case with this design, then the design is flawed and should be reworked so that you can use real optical ground glass. So far, none of the sample clips I have seen show an image that does not look degraded by the plastic. No offense, just an observation. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

December 21st, 2003, 01:10 PM	#486
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Yeah, but expense and weight have to be factored into the design, as well. I've got about five "ground glass" CD's here -- they cost me nothing more than I'd long ago spent on CDR's. If I drop them, or decide I want to mess with them to get different optical effects, I don't have to sweat their replacement and the costs incurred. The question isn't (for me at least) 'How can I get the best image possible, at the expense of other considerations?', it's more 'How can I create an image that's acceptably interesting with the things I have at hand?' - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

December 21st, 2003, 01:23 PM	#487
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	I would still say that as long as you limit yourself to using plastic in the image chain, you will be self-defeating yourself. Why waste all that energy trying to produce an "acceptable" image with plastic when you have the potential for an excellent quality image with glass? It's a simple thing that we have known for years - plastic does not produce good results in photography. You mention "expense" - what is your budget cap? C'mon save yourself a lot of frustration and wasted effort, spend a little more and put some real glass in there. I dare say that it is not impossible to find an affordable glass solution by modifying the design a bit. Regarding finding an affordable piece of glass - has anyone thought of using a 2mm thick 4x4 or 3x3 mist or fog filter from LEE Filters or Cokin? Or perhaps an even-more-affordable resin filter from LEE or Cokin? Even a resin filter would be much better than plastic - but you really should use glass. Again, no offense implied here, I'm somewhat impressed with what you are doing, really. It's just that the image is too deteriorated. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

December 21st, 2003, 10:56 AM	#482
Peter Sciretta Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 72	This may be a stupid question... But how are people connecting wires? ie the motor to batteries? I've tried duct and electrical tape and it doesn't seem to hold that good?

December 21st, 2003, 11:00 AM	#483
Jon Kamps Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 56	I think solder would be the matrial of choice

December 21st, 2003, 01:43 PM	#488
Stewart McDonald Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: UK Posts: 130	I'd say the new footage that Agus posted is very acceptable for what I want, but I'm more interested in a movie look than high detail. Even if it has some grain (which I can't spot anyway), it adds to the effect.

December 21st, 2003, 03:01 PM	#489
Agus Casse Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Guatemala Posts: 322	New version with higher res... http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mmtestBETA.wmv Don Berube is right we are loosing a lot of light and considering that still havent installed a dove prism to correct the image. Still, cost vs performace is amazing... DOF is great, my TRV18 is kicking ass with no modifications or aditional investment. hey Jim, thanks for that credit dude !! i see that you are having some vibration problems, are you using a cd motor ? did you sanded the cd or was a already frosted one ?

December 21st, 2003, 03:13 PM	#490
Peter Sciretta Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 72	I think don is also right but I think centering the disc could be a problem with glass... The cd disc is easy with a cd motor BTW - DON - I worked as a PA on your short film 2 years ago... did you ever finish it? It was a surprise to see you on this thread...

December 21st, 2003, 03:16 PM	#491
Agus Casse Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Guatemala Posts: 322	i think they can cut the glass center just like the cd, i saw some stores that have some glass windows with little holes. i will try up with glass next week if i am lucky, i really need to improve this for the comercial version, also i am still working in flipping the image.

December 21st, 2003, 03:20 PM	#492
Peter Sciretta Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 72	agus - I think people would be satisfied in a commercial version if you could find either: A. an output from the cameras RCA's that will flip the image normal for an external monitor/lcd B. If you include an LCD that will flip everything. I like the idea of the prism but I think it will cause too many problems plus it will just be one more thing the light must go through and will bring the light levels down yet again. I don't think most people have a problem with flipping in post... the problem is to see everything as it is (right side up) while filming.

December 21st, 2003, 03:22 PM	#493
Agus Casse Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Guatemala Posts: 322	mmm who else thinks about this ? that would be easier and cheaper, just to buy a LCD monitor that flips it than the prism. __________________ Agus35 - the ultimate tool for indie DV filmakers -

December 21st, 2003, 03:27 PM	#494
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	Agus, are those your sons or your nephews? They seem like good kids. You should name your device after them to reward them for tolerating your chasing them around with your device, which I am sure looks a little scary to them. hehe Just curious if you could find a way to control the exposure more - so that you are not so overexposed in the white areas of the frame? It would be cool to see a nice flat, balanced exposure. Is that sound I hear being made by your device? Is there a way you could deaden that sound? Reminds me of an old class at MIT, where the engineering students were given a Braun coffee bean grinder and the goal was to see who could figure out the best way to make the grinder perform as silently as possible. One solution was to deaden the walls of the coffee bean grinder with neoprene and to use a motor which was slightly over-rated for the task of grinding coffee beans. They lowered the voltage to that motor, so that it ran at only the torque needed to grind the beans and it was indeed a bit quieter. I would say that plastic shell of your device is resonating and somewhat amplifying the sound of the motor. Perhaps gluing a thin piece of neoprene inside the walls of your device (or around the motor?) would help mask the sound. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

December 21st, 2003, 03:40 PM	#495
Agus Casse Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Guatemala Posts: 322	yeah those are my newphies they are twins. :) The problem really is that the mic of the TRV is less than 3 inches from the motor, so it is silent but the mic is too close. it can be solve using an external mic with no trouble. about the exposure, my bad i was so excited using the device that i didnt set it manually. but well :) i am so haappy that the optics are working well, and the image is not deformed like my first versions, and also there is no vigneting. Don what do you think about a commercial version ? is flipping the image critical ? __________________ Agus35 - the ultimate tool for indie DV filmakers -