Sumix 2/3" 1920x1080 CMOS

Jose A. Garcia · February 4th, 2008, 05:35 AM

Hi all,

I've been away for some time, but I'm here again.

I don't see what's the real problem with this camera. I mean, if you can set a constant framerate and shoot lossless video to the computer without frame drops, then all you need is the best possible debayer algorithm you can find. I mean, you need a computer with the SI2K Mini as well and all the new setups with the Canon HV20 need computers to capture too.

So far the only difference I can find between the Sumix and the SI2kMini is resolution (1080p vs 2K) and specific film software and codecs. It may be a bit harder to use, but you're saving more than $10,000 to get a very close image quality and motion feeling.

My question is: Is there a real problem to use this camera for film purposes?

Jose A. Garcia · February 4th, 2008, 05:45 AM

I've got another question. I'm planning on filming many vfx shots so rolling shutter is my main concern mainly because of the camera matching software. Is it very noticeable? Could you provide us with a quick 1-2 seconds panning shot so we can see it ourselves?

Thanks.

Paul Curtis · February 4th, 2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farhad Towfiq

Paul,

We prefer that our customers making share images and video witch each other. It is also possible that we place one camera to be controlled remotely, so people can take turn in changing adjustments and experimenting. I discuss it with our support people.
We are shipping cameras now, but there is a 1-5 weeks lead time.

Is anyone here using one? Or are there some communities elsewhere with people already experimenting?

The head sounds great but without images or raw data it's difficult to justify buying one 'blind' just to have a look.

Is the API available online anywhere? Or any whitepapers or technical documents?

many thanks!
paul

Paul Curtis · February 4th, 2008, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farhad Towfiq

Paul,

We prefer that our customers making share images and video witch each other. It is also possible that we place one camera to be controlled remotely, so people can take turn in changing adjustments and experimenting. I discuss it with our support people.
We are shipping cameras now, but there is a 1-5 weeks lead time.

Is anyone here using one? Or are there some communities elsewhere with people already experimenting?

The head sounds great but without images or raw data it's difficult to justify buying one 'blind' just to have a look.

Is the API available online anywhere? Or any whitepapers or technical documents?

many thanks!
paul

Daniel Lipats · February 4th, 2008, 10:38 AM

Im eager to get my hands on this camera, but before I commit to buy I want to see more examples. Right now ($2,000?) feels like a shot in the dark. Im concerned about the ERS, noise, and sensitivity. Im very impressed with the HV20. From my experience with it, its sensitivity rivals CCD and the ERS... Well it hides it so well I honestly cant even tell its there. However, I have learned that not all CMOS chips are alike. Its difficult to really get a good idea of how the cameras perform in practice based only on technical data.

If Sumix or a customer could provide any more videos, or images demonstrating sensitivity or pan movements it would certainly give me more confidence to buy. Would be pleased to see any more at all.

Serge Victorovich · February 4th, 2008, 03:11 PM

Anybody is tested combination of
1) SMX-12A2C ($2500) http://sumix.com/products/cameras/smx-12a2m/index.html
2) StreamPix 4 ($ price unknown) http://norpix.com/products/multicamera.php
3) NEO4K ($999) http://cineform.com/products/NeoHD.htm

It is possible to perfectly sync 4 SMX-12A2C camera heads by using StreamPix4 ?

Paul Curtis · February 4th, 2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serge Victorovich

Anybody is tested combination of
1) SMX-12A2C ($2500) http://sumix.com/products/cameras/smx-12a2m/index.html
2) StreamPix 4 ($ price unknown) http://norpix.com/products/multicamera.php
3) NEO4K ($999) http://cineform.com/products/NeoHD.htm

It is possible to perfectly sync 4 SMX-12A2C camera heads by using StreamPix4 ?

I assume you're looking at streampix for cineform RAW encoding? I would think you'd be hard pushed to encode 4 simultaneous streams of cineform RAW unless you had a very high spec PC. (I think in the cineform forum David mentioned a core duo for one). You'd also be looking at 4 x 12MB/s recording rate, that would be 4 separate streams though not just a single 48MB/s.

Also im not sure norpix has updated or had a chance to update streampix to work with that sumix head.

But in theory it should work if you have the hardware to do it.

cheers
paul

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · February 9th, 2008, 09:17 AM

Paul:

Why Am I saying the actual version of the camera is not quite usable?

Because:

API is not available online. Nor any whitepapers or technical documents.
The internal compresion is "something" only they know how it works and how much processing intensive it is.

Quoting Farhad:

"The catch is that SMX-12A2C does not have standard manual control. Everything must be controlled from PC side using a custom software (yet.) This camera is designed to give the total control of the sensor to the user."

How can a user have full sensor control when it is really hard to get to know how to decompress the compressed stream (when aplicable), there is no ducumentation, and the "user" cannot even write its own drivers, and need to wait an undefined time, to get a different version of a closed one?

"The only limitation is that at 1080p 60 fps GigaE bandwidth does not allow all 12 bits. You must choose a table look up to transfer 8 bits to PC at 60fps."

So again, the "total control" doesn't mean you can load "custon LUTs" or even get 10 bits from the camera, instead of the fixed 8 (linear/log?) or 12 bit linear.

So total control again means, "you can have your car in any color, as long as it is black"

"One of our customers needed LDVS output of the sensor so they can use their own interface they decided to buy our camera and use our API to control the sensor."

Yes, this is quite positive.Are they shooting high quality stuff for entertainment imaging purposes?

"This camera is as flexible as it comes, except for little GigaE bandwidth limitation. The price is low only because we decided to set it so. Our business model is to let the resale value to be above our price so our risk of inventory and production will be low."

Of coursethat it is as flexible as it comes, but it seems to me that it comes short.

Maybe after the years I really became mad, but still think SI has a clearer vision of what needs to be done.A vision Andrey and Sumix are still lacking.

PS: If someone here really believes this camera in its actual version (I repeat this because it could be easilly changed in future revisions) is as flexible as Farhad says, please let me know it.

Jose A. Garcia · February 11th, 2008, 05:57 AM

Juan, just a couple of points:

- Farhad says it's not possible to get 12 bit from the camera at 60fps which is something the SI2K can't do either. You can have full 12bit color in 24, 25 and 30fps. I don't see the problem with that.

- Again, the SI2K mini doesn't have full manual controls either. It does have a more cinema targeted interface though. The only problem I see is that with the Sumix you have to learn how to use its interface for cinema purposes which means some features will probably be totally useless (I mean, they have nothing to do with cinema shooting), but also I'm sure it has everything we need.

So yes, I do believe the Sumix can be used for cinema shooting.

Paul Curtis · February 11th, 2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

Juan, just a couple of points:

- Farhad says it's not possible to get 12 bit from the camera at 60fps which is something the SI2K can't do either. You can have full 12bit color in 24, 25 and 30fps. I don't see the problem with that.

- Again, the SI2K mini doesn't have full manual controls either. It does have a more cinema targeted interface though. The only problem I see is that with the Sumix you have to learn how to use its interface for cinema purposes which means some features will probably be totally useless (I mean, they have nothing to do with cinema shooting), but also I'm sure it has everything we need.

So yes, I do believe the Sumix can be used for cinema shooting.

Are there any issues with GigE and bandwidth limitations? 30 fps @ 1920x1080 @ 12 bit is 88.98MB/sec which seems pretty close to the limit for GigE (which is 1000mbit/s?)

I do remember Sumix saying something about compression at the head though, unless packing 12 bits is the compression they mean?

cheers
paul

Jose A. Garcia · February 11th, 2008, 10:34 AM

They say lossless realtime compression, so I guess real numbers will be lower than those 88,98Mb/sec and easier to deliver for the GigE interface.

Roshdi Alkadri · February 11th, 2008, 07:01 PM

there's something about the clips i just didnt like, did anyone else notice RGB noise

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · February 12th, 2008, 05:40 PM

Jose, are you able to tell us how much CPU power do you need for decompressing the compressed stream from the head in Realtime and recompressing it again with "something"?

Mabe just recoding it uncompressed would be easier.

Does anybody know what kind of algorithm are they using in their hardware compression?

Wouldn't it be much better to have a 10 bit log LUT inside the camera head instead of the 12 bit linear?

Lots of questions I think...

Forrest Schultz · February 16th, 2008, 03:21 AM

Roshdi, what clip are you speaking of?

Jose A. Garcia · February 16th, 2008, 11:04 AM

Juan, I don't own the camera yet. You mean doing it with any of the clips they've got online?

February 4th, 2008, 05:35 AM	#121
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Hi all, I've been away for some time, but I'm here again. I don't see what's the real problem with this camera. I mean, if you can set a constant framerate and shoot lossless video to the computer without frame drops, then all you need is the best possible debayer algorithm you can find. I mean, you need a computer with the SI2K Mini as well and all the new setups with the Canon HV20 need computers to capture too. So far the only difference I can find between the Sumix and the SI2kMini is resolution (1080p vs 2K) and specific film software and codecs. It may be a bit harder to use, but you're saving more than $10,000 to get a very close image quality and motion feeling. My question is: Is there a real problem to use this camera for film purposes?

February 4th, 2008, 05:45 AM	#122
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	I've got another question. I'm planning on filming many vfx shots so rolling shutter is my main concern mainly because of the camera matching software. Is it very noticeable? Could you provide us with a quick 1-2 seconds panning shot so we can see it ourselves? Thanks.

February 4th, 2008, 10:38 AM	#125
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	Im eager to get my hands on this camera, but before I commit to buy I want to see more examples. Right now ($2,000?) feels like a shot in the dark. Im concerned about the ERS, noise, and sensitivity. Im very impressed with the HV20. From my experience with it, its sensitivity rivals CCD and the ERS... Well it hides it so well I honestly cant even tell its there. However, I have learned that not all CMOS chips are alike. Its difficult to really get a good idea of how the cameras perform in practice based only on technical data. If Sumix or a customer could provide any more videos, or images demonstrating sensitivity or pan movements it would certainly give me more confidence to buy. Would be pleased to see any more at all.

February 4th, 2008, 03:11 PM	#126
Serge Victorovich Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 376	Anybody is tested combination of 1) SMX-12A2C ($2500) http://sumix.com/products/cameras/smx-12a2m/index.html 2) StreamPix 4 ($ price unknown) http://norpix.com/products/multicamera.php 3) NEO4K ($999) http://cineform.com/products/NeoHD.htm It is possible to perfectly sync 4 SMX-12A2C camera heads by using StreamPix4 ?

February 9th, 2008, 09:17 AM	#128
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Paul: Why Am I saying the actual version of the camera is not quite usable? Because: API is not available online. Nor any whitepapers or technical documents. The internal compresion is "something" only they know how it works and how much processing intensive it is. Quoting Farhad: "The catch is that SMX-12A2C does not have standard manual control. Everything must be controlled from PC side using a custom software (yet.) This camera is designed to give the total control of the sensor to the user." How can a user have full sensor control when it is really hard to get to know how to decompress the compressed stream (when aplicable), there is no ducumentation, and the "user" cannot even write its own drivers, and need to wait an undefined time, to get a different version of a closed one? "The only limitation is that at 1080p 60 fps GigaE bandwidth does not allow all 12 bits. You must choose a table look up to transfer 8 bits to PC at 60fps." So again, the "total control" doesn't mean you can load "custon LUTs" or even get 10 bits from the camera, instead of the fixed 8 (linear/log?) or 12 bit linear. So total control again means, "you can have your car in any color, as long as it is black" "One of our customers needed LDVS output of the sensor so they can use their own interface they decided to buy our camera and use our API to control the sensor." Yes, this is quite positive.Are they shooting high quality stuff for entertainment imaging purposes? "This camera is as flexible as it comes, except for little GigaE bandwidth limitation. The price is low only because we decided to set it so. Our business model is to let the resale value to be above our price so our risk of inventory and production will be low." Of coursethat it is as flexible as it comes, but it seems to me that it comes short. Maybe after the years I really became mad, but still think SI has a clearer vision of what needs to be done.A vision Andrey and Sumix are still lacking. PS: If someone here really believes this camera in its actual version (I repeat this because it could be easilly changed in future revisions) is as flexible as Farhad says, please let me know it.

February 11th, 2008, 05:57 AM	#129
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Juan, just a couple of points: - Farhad says it's not possible to get 12 bit from the camera at 60fps which is something the SI2K can't do either. You can have full 12bit color in 24, 25 and 30fps. I don't see the problem with that. - Again, the SI2K mini doesn't have full manual controls either. It does have a more cinema targeted interface though. The only problem I see is that with the Sumix you have to learn how to use its interface for cinema purposes which means some features will probably be totally useless (I mean, they have nothing to do with cinema shooting), but also I'm sure it has everything we need. So yes, I do believe the Sumix can be used for cinema shooting.

February 11th, 2008, 10:34 AM	#131
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	They say lossless realtime compression, so I guess real numbers will be lower than those 88,98Mb/sec and easier to deliver for the GigE interface.

February 11th, 2008, 07:01 PM	#132
Roshdi Alkadri Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 265	there's something about the clips i just didnt like, did anyone else notice RGB noise

February 12th, 2008, 05:40 PM	#133
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Jose, are you able to tell us how much CPU power do you need for decompressing the compressed stream from the head in Realtime and recompressing it again with "something"? Mabe just recoding it uncompressed would be easier. Does anybody know what kind of algorithm are they using in their hardware compression? Wouldn't it be much better to have a 10 bit log LUT inside the camera head instead of the 12 bit linear? Lots of questions I think...

February 16th, 2008, 03:21 AM	#134
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	Roshdi, what clip are you speaking of?

February 16th, 2008, 11:04 AM	#135
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Juan, I don't own the camera yet. You mean doing it with any of the clips they've got online?