Sumix 2/3" 1920x1080 CMOS

Anmol Mishra · February 20th, 2009, 06:23 PM

Hi Daniel. You are in a unique position here - would you mind clarifying the contrasting advantages..?
Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Lipats

I have both the Sumix and the 5D Mark II.

The rolling shutter is about the same as on the Sumix, if not slightly less. Both the cameras have contrasting advantages.

Daniel Lipats · February 20th, 2009, 08:55 PM

[*] SMX-12A2C outputs 12bit uncompressed raw at 1-60fps, the 5D2 outputs 8 bit heavily compressed h.264 at only 30 fps
[*] SMX-12A2C provides complete manual control with no restrictions, the 5D2 has no manual control other than exposure compensation.
[*] SMX-12A2C is only a camera, the 5D2 has audio & video capture built in
[*] SMX-12A2C is not very light sensitive without introducing a lot of noise, the 5D2 has phenomenal low light sensitivity.
[*] SMX-12A2C has a 2/3" sensor which is ok, the 5D2 has a 35mm sensor.
[*] SMX-12A2C requires a laptop/mobile computer to capture and operate, the 5D2 is small and works out of the box.
[*] SMX-12A2C uncompressed RAW videos take up a huge amount of space, 5D2 output file size is much smaller.
[*] SMX-12A2C outputs sharpest and most detailed and natural 24p videos, 5D2 videos still look good but options in post are more limited especially with compression artifacts.
[*] SMX-12A2C needs a low pass filter, but the 5D2 has aliasing (due to it capturing only every 3rd line) you can only avoid with diffusion filters.
[*] SMX-12A2C Is very flexible with many different possibilities, custom software, hardware, possibilities for 3D and much more. The 5D2 firmware is encrypted.

The Sumix camera is good if you want to build a camera to your own specifications and don't mind investing the time and money in developing software, designing a production workflow, and researching hardware.

Both of them will have you jumping through hoops.

Anmol Mishra · February 22nd, 2009, 10:25 AM

Hi Daniel - the 5D "possibly" gives an uncompressed 10-bit 4:4:4 HDMI at a 3:2 aspect ratio using Video + Face Recognition mode.
It is 1620 x 1080 with black bars on the side..
I think its uncompressed on the Live View as it crops the top and bottom when you press record. Also 3:2 is the native aspect ratio of the sensor.
The Face Record (Or Recognition) is needed to turn off the rectangle in the middle of Live View - the Overlay can be turned off in the menu.

I have no way of checking if the signal is uncompressed - if you can suggest a test, I can contact my friend and we can test this..

Eric Wu · March 26th, 2009, 03:07 AM

Here are some more random shots I put together. I've upload it on to Vimeo:
SMX12A2C Test Shots on Vimeo

Please download and watch the original AVI file(~80MB). Even that one is highly compressed and has some compression artifacts not in the uncompressed files.

There are indeed aliasing issues. You can see them in the wide-angle shots (e.g. the building on the upper-right of the 4th shot) where the lens' resolution appears to be higher than the sensor's. I think an OLPF is needed.

Daniel Lipats · March 26th, 2009, 12:52 PM

Eric,

Thanks for the sharing the video, it looks great.

I would be very interested in trying out your software. If this is possible to arrange please let me know. Maybe we can even collaborate on development.

Eric Wu · March 27th, 2009, 03:51 AM

Thank you Daniel,

The current version of my software was written specifically for my PC hardware setup and most likely won't run on other system. I'll see what I can do when I have time to.

Johanes Wilenius · May 11th, 2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Wu

Here are some more random shots I put together. I've upload it on to Vimeo:
SMX12A2C Test Shots on Vimeo

Please download and watch the original AVI file(~80MB). Even that one is highly compressed and has some compression artifacts not in the uncompressed files.

There are indeed aliasing issues. You can see them in the wide-angle shots (e.g. the building on the upper-right of the 4th shot) where the lens' resolution appears to be higher than the sensor's. I think an OLPF is needed.

That looks f**** great ... it looks better than my 5DMK2 ... Aliasing issues, what lenses you use?

I was going to bouhgt sumix, but they just dont answer to mails. I already bought arriflex with lenses from 9.8 to 240mm to use with 12A2C, but then come 5DMKII, so I bought it, because I have so many canon lenses. I also bought nikon to canon converter to use manual nikkors to control f-stop.

Where is that 80 mb avi? Have you any pictures of your camera.

Johannes
www.cameratuning.fi

Eric Wu · May 13th, 2009, 02:59 AM

Hello Johannes,

Thank you for the comment. The avi file can be found on the bottom-right corner of the Vimeo page.

Recently I've acquired several old 16mm lenses. It turned out that the lens matters a lot. The Nikon 50mm F1.4 I used in that test footage was too soft for the sensor. I'll post some new samples shut with other lenses.

The samples were shot with the program I wrote using the camera SDK. I chose a workflow very different from the Sumix's software's. IMO it's very difficult to get similar results using Sumix's current software.

Here you can find some picture of my camera setup:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/alternati...0-cmos-35.html

Dan Hudgins · May 15th, 2009, 05:55 AM

I am developing a "freeish" uncompressed DI workflow (0K to about 8K) for making feature films and was wondering if the SMX-12A2C holds sync speed well enough to be within 1 frame in four minutes of shooting when you use an external WAV recorder for double system sound shooting?

Is there a flash/beep feature for the first frame to act as an auto-slate, or would I need to use a clap board?

We are doing tests for filmout on Vision 2383 print film using my DANCINEL.EXE (tm) with a ROSCO #22 filter off a 1600x1200 LCD monitor, we could resize the 1920x1080 images to letter-box in that, or do a crop and resize for 'Scope... Tests using H.264 from a Canon camera had issues with macro noise and frame rate conversion, so I am looking at uncompressed 24fps camera options.

Dan Hudgins
tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com
The official DANCAD3D (tm) Beta Test Web site.

Johanes Wilenius · May 30th, 2009, 03:10 PM

Okay I got my sumix and ordered for PC for tuning... intel miniitx dualcore and 128gb flash drive + 12 volt system... and if have to subcontract a arri to c-mount converter for my arri lenses

Eric, your software, is it posiible to buy (?$) , try?... is it possible to capture image squences with sumix or how do you convert those to DNG, with software? and those DNGs are able to open forexamble in photoshop as RAW

Any other software recommend to sumix?

I tried sumix soft with my old amd, what is too slow to, but I got footages / testing while waiting for a mini PC to arrive. Calibration, exposure & other etc. quite hard to get colors look even passable, but ayway trail looks promising

Johanes Wilenius · June 23rd, 2009, 05:01 PM

Okay, I got that video project PC ... so my first quick test shot of jackdaw with sumix + 300mm telecentry ... here is link to video :D
Index of /sumix
Original was 3.3Giga... and packed from VLC is 5.9mb

I dont have any other videosoft at my "PC" than, what came with a sumixsoft and it's very difficult to handle. My all videosofts are at my mac, FCP, AE, Color...
So I export avi and moved it to my mac, but only program what showed it was VLC player,
so I was not able to adjust anything. I tried to find wraw to quicktime, but
no succes ...

and few picts of my quick assemble bare-pc. I just wanted to try is system working.

Eric Wu · June 26th, 2009, 02:56 AM

Hello Johanes,

Sorry for the late reply.

That's a long lens you have there. Your system looks promising. Great footage, too.
There seems to be some transcoding problem of the footage. The resolution seems to be only half of the original.

The program I wrote saves the raw data in DNG sequence directly. DNG sequence can be opened as footages in Adobe AE, plus the varies adjustment you get with Adobe Camera Raw. I don't think there's any program out there that can convert Sumix's raw format to DNG. The only other software I know that support the SMX-12A2 camera is Norpix's SteamPix, but I've never used it. Currently I don't have any plan to sell my program. It's far from commercial quality anyway.

Do you have trouble connecting the camera? I usually have to redo the connecting procedure 2 or 3 times before it succeeded.

Johanes Wilenius · June 26th, 2009, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Wu

The program I wrote saves the raw data in DNG sequence directly.

I don't think there's any program out there that can convert Sumix's raw format to DNG. The only other software I know that support the SMX-12A2 camera is Norpix's SteamPix, but I've never used it. Do you have trouble connecting the camera? I usually have to redo the connecting procedure 2 or 3 times before it succeeded.

Hello Eric,
and thanks for you answer and I have no hurry with this project, I have about 50 other proj.sessions going on, for example my I'm try to do 360° panoramas. One demo at Sibeliustalo virtualtour demo and here panorama with movie
Movie in 360° panorama )

Lense, Yes that quite loooong... I bought old arriflex st and I got 8 lenses for that,
I have from 9.8 to that 300mm... to 5DMK2 from 15mmFE to 400/2.8 & 1.4x and 2x, but there is no conversion for those I think?

DNG will be only I need now, I dont need long videos, raw workflow is familiar to me
(Camera tuning - Home).... Yes and I only record 1280x720/25 fps/12 bit for this test, but I tried also 50 fps at same size and it worked. I would like to try to batch process those in PS and the pull it back to video and to FCP / color... but not sure yet...
Maybe that avi wraw to AppleProRes would be also fine. So many unsolved things yet.

And usually, yes, few time to get connected

cheers
- johannes

Daniel Lipats · June 27th, 2009, 05:23 PM

I wrote some software for the Sumix camera that captures frames to DNG using the Adobe SDK and has an interface modeled after the SI-2K system. It's not complete but has worked well with my touch screen for basic functionality. Unfortunately a few weeks ago my camera was bricked. Now it won't turn on or respond to any Ethernet events.

My software may have had something to do with it, I just don't understand how. Unless there is a major bug in the SDK I accidentally tripped. This has been a big setback, I had planned to release the software for free.

I have not had a chance to return the camera to Sumix. I will contact them next week and see if it's possible to arrange.

Johanes Wilenius · June 29th, 2009, 07:15 AM

Update to my DIY HD CAM... PC got a new home, "Kulta Sula" vegetable oil can, maybe the ugliest cam in universe, some pictures at my web page: )

Camera tuning - DIY HD videocam

March 26th, 2009, 03:07 AM	#529
Eric Wu Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Taiwan Posts: 32	Here are some more random shots I put together. I've upload it on to Vimeo: SMX12A2C Test Shots on Vimeo Please download and watch the original AVI file(~80MB). Even that one is highly compressed and has some compression artifacts not in the uncompressed files. There are indeed aliasing issues. You can see them in the wide-angle shots (e.g. the building on the upper-right of the 4th shot) where the lens' resolution appears to be higher than the sensor's. I think an OLPF is needed. Attached Thumbnails

May 15th, 2009, 05:55 AM	#534
Dan Hudgins Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 82	How well does SMX-12A2C hold to 24fps? I am developing a "freeish" uncompressed DI workflow (0K to about 8K) for making feature films and was wondering if the SMX-12A2C holds sync speed well enough to be within 1 frame in four minutes of shooting when you use an external WAV recorder for double system sound shooting? Is there a flash/beep feature for the first frame to act as an auto-slate, or would I need to use a clap board? We are doing tests for filmout on Vision 2383 print film using my DANCINEL.EXE (tm) with a ROSCO #22 filter off a 1600x1200 LCD monitor, we could resize the 1920x1080 images to letter-box in that, or do a crop and resize for 'Scope... Tests using H.264 from a Canon camera had issues with macro noise and frame rate conversion, so I am looking at uncompressed 24fps camera options. Dan Hudgins tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com The official DANCAD3D (tm) Beta Test Web site.

May 30th, 2009, 03:10 PM	#535
Johanes Wilenius New Boot Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 9	Okay I got my sumix and ordered for PC for tuning... intel miniitx dualcore and 128gb flash drive + 12 volt system... and if have to subcontract a arri to c-mount converter for my arri lenses Eric, your software, is it posiible to buy (?$) , try?... is it possible to capture image squences with sumix or how do you convert those to DNG, with software? and those DNGs are able to open forexamble in photoshop as RAW Any other software recommend to sumix? I tried sumix soft with my old amd, what is too slow to, but I got footages / testing while waiting for a mini PC to arrive. Calibration, exposure & other etc. quite hard to get colors look even passable, but ayway trail looks promising Last edited by Johanes Wilenius; May 30th, 2009 at 09:14 PM.

June 23rd, 2009, 05:01 PM	#536
Johanes Wilenius New Boot Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 9	Okay, I got that video project PC ... so my first quick test shot of jackdaw with sumix + 300mm telecentry ... here is link to video :D Index of /sumix Original was 3.3Giga... and packed from VLC is 5.9mb I dont have any other videosoft at my "PC" than, what came with a sumixsoft and it's very difficult to handle. My all videosofts are at my mac, FCP, AE, Color... So I export avi and moved it to my mac, but only program what showed it was VLC player, so I was not able to adjust anything. I tried to find wraw to quicktime, but no succes ... and few picts of my quick assemble bare-pc. I just wanted to try is system working. Attached Thumbnails

February 20th, 2009, 08:55 PM	#527
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	[] SMX-12A2C outputs 12bit uncompressed raw at 1-60fps, the 5D2 outputs 8 bit heavily compressed h.264 at only 30 fps [] SMX-12A2C provides complete manual control with no restrictions, the 5D2 has no manual control other than exposure compensation. [] SMX-12A2C is only a camera, the 5D2 has audio & video capture built in [] SMX-12A2C is not very light sensitive without introducing a lot of noise, the 5D2 has phenomenal low light sensitivity. [] SMX-12A2C has a 2/3" sensor which is ok, the 5D2 has a 35mm sensor. [] SMX-12A2C requires a laptop/mobile computer to capture and operate, the 5D2 is small and works out of the box. [] SMX-12A2C uncompressed RAW videos take up a huge amount of space, 5D2 output file size is much smaller. [] SMX-12A2C outputs sharpest and most detailed and natural 24p videos, 5D2 videos still look good but options in post are more limited especially with compression artifacts. [] SMX-12A2C needs a low pass filter, but the 5D2 has aliasing (due to it capturing only every 3rd line) you can only avoid with diffusion filters. [] SMX-12A2C Is very flexible with many different possibilities, custom software, hardware, possibilities for 3D and much more. The 5D2 firmware is encrypted. The Sumix camera is good if you want to build a camera to your own specifications and don't mind investing the time and money in developing software, designing a production workflow, and researching hardware. Both of them will have you jumping through hoops.

February 22nd, 2009, 10:25 AM	#528
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	Hi Daniel - the 5D "possibly" gives an uncompressed 10-bit 4:4:4 HDMI at a 3:2 aspect ratio using Video + Face Recognition mode. It is 1620 x 1080 with black bars on the side.. I think its uncompressed on the Live View as it crops the top and bottom when you press record. Also 3:2 is the native aspect ratio of the sensor. The Face Record (Or Recognition) is needed to turn off the rectangle in the middle of Live View - the Overlay can be turned off in the menu. I have no way of checking if the signal is uncompressed - if you can suggest a test, I can contact my friend and we can test this..

March 26th, 2009, 12:52 PM	#530
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	Eric, Thanks for the sharing the video, it looks great. I would be very interested in trying out your software. If this is possible to arrange please let me know. Maybe we can even collaborate on development.

March 27th, 2009, 03:51 AM	#531
Eric Wu Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Taiwan Posts: 32	Thank you Daniel, The current version of my software was written specifically for my PC hardware setup and most likely won't run on other system. I'll see what I can do when I have time to.

May 13th, 2009, 02:59 AM	#533
Eric Wu Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Taiwan Posts: 32	Hello Johannes, Thank you for the comment. The avi file can be found on the bottom-right corner of the Vimeo page. Recently I've acquired several old 16mm lenses. It turned out that the lens matters a lot. The Nikon 50mm F1.4 I used in that test footage was too soft for the sensor. I'll post some new samples shut with other lenses. The samples were shot with the program I wrote using the camera SDK. I chose a workflow very different from the Sumix's software's. IMO it's very difficult to get similar results using Sumix's current software. Here you can find some picture of my camera setup: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/alternati...0-cmos-35.html

June 26th, 2009, 02:56 AM	#537
Eric Wu Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Taiwan Posts: 32	Hello Johanes, Sorry for the late reply. That's a long lens you have there. Your system looks promising. Great footage, too. There seems to be some transcoding problem of the footage. The resolution seems to be only half of the original. The program I wrote saves the raw data in DNG sequence directly. DNG sequence can be opened as footages in Adobe AE, plus the varies adjustment you get with Adobe Camera Raw. I don't think there's any program out there that can convert Sumix's raw format to DNG. The only other software I know that support the SMX-12A2 camera is Norpix's SteamPix, but I've never used it. Currently I don't have any plan to sell my program. It's far from commercial quality anyway. Do you have trouble connecting the camera? I usually have to redo the connecting procedure 2 or 3 times before it succeeded.

June 27th, 2009, 05:23 PM	#539
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	I wrote some software for the Sumix camera that captures frames to DNG using the Adobe SDK and has an interface modeled after the SI-2K system. It's not complete but has worked well with my touch screen for basic functionality. Unfortunately a few weeks ago my camera was bricked. Now it won't turn on or respond to any Ethernet events. My software may have had something to do with it, I just don't understand how. Unless there is a major bug in the SDK I accidentally tripped. This has been a big setback, I had planned to release the software for free. I have not had a chance to return the camera to Sumix. I will contact them next week and see if it's possible to arrange.

June 29th, 2009, 07:15 AM	#540
Johanes Wilenius New Boot Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 9	Update to my DIY HD CAM... PC got a new home, "Kulta Sula" vegetable oil can, maybe the ugliest cam in universe, some pictures at my web page: ) Camera tuning - DIY HD videocam