Sumix 2/3" 1920x1080 CMOS

Jose A. Garcia · March 27th, 2008, 05:12 AM

Hi Ronald,

This is my setup from side to side:

- Cinevate Mattebox
- Redrock Micro FollowFocus
- Xenarc Technologies 700TSV 7" Touchscreen LCD
http://www.xenarc.com/product/700tsv.html
- Optics (Computar 12-75mm - Angenieux 12-120mm - 3 Canon FD 35mm lenses 28mm/50mm/100mm with C-Mount adapter)
- Camera
- Forcet miniPC with a Core2Duo 2,40Ghz processor and 4Gb of RAM
http://www.forcet.com/mini_PC_9650M/...ediacenter.asp (Sorry it's in Spanish)
- Optional external battery pack
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.as...OD&ProdID=3198

Everything for about $7,000. Less than a single SI2K Mini without any accesory, computer or lens.

I'm expecting to have the full operative camera in a few months.

Régine Weinberg · March 27th, 2008, 08:23 AM

sound great
is you CPU box with a fan?

still not knowing what streampix will give for file formats to edit the stuff
and white balance will it do that

as it is a 1 CCD with Bayer a Cannon with 3 CCD could it do the same trick sometimes used the same price range.

What is with film look DOF exactly going on in this aetup

Daniel Lipats · March 27th, 2008, 09:16 AM

Right now my test setup is made up of 3 components. I'm using a full size desktop PC with a case that has a handle on the top for transportation, a 7" touch screen LCD, and the camera.

Setup time is about... ~5 min or so, the longest part is waiting for the PC to POST and XP to boot. This kind of setup is not practical for a moving camera unless placed on a platform such as a dolly.

Because a monitor is necessary to focus and configure the camera its really not a good idea to just wonder off with only the camera in your hands. Without the LCD you have no idea what your looking at, if its in focus, and even if you have an optical viewfinder your exposure is only a gamble. VGA cables tend to be big and thick, your also running another cable to the LCD to supply power. The best setup is if the camera, lcd, and computer could be mounted on rods.

Its possible with the mini PC products, its just finding a good balance of PC hardware, power usage, and price.

I'm going to wait for the StreamPix 3 software to support the camera before I start buying computer hardware. I want to know the minimal hardware specs I can get away with. Smaller computers weigh less and have more battery life.

Jose A. Garcia · March 27th, 2008, 10:22 AM

I can't wait to see some of your tests Daniel! My PoE injector arrived today but unfortunately, it came without any cables, so this afternoon I'll go and buy a couple of large Cat6 ethernet cables. It looks like I'm cursed! I'm not going to believe it the first time I get to shoot anything with the Sumix!

Jose A. Garcia · March 27th, 2008, 10:39 AM

Ronald,

Yes, the minipc in my setup has fan.

Don't know about the white balance inside StreamPix. I'm sure they include something, but anyway, StreamPix outputs RAW Cineform AVI so there you have your two answers: the format is AVI and can be edited in any NLE system such as Premiere or Vegas and with RAW data you can do a post white balance if you're not happy with the results.

But anyway I'm sure StreamPix will have WB.

This is not 1 CCD, it's 1 CMOS, which means an image quality closer to film with just one sensor. I don't see the point on using 3 sensors anymore.

And finally, DOF. This CMOS sensor is 2/3" which gives a DOF much closer to cinema than a standard sized sensor (CCD or CMOS) which is normally between 1/3" and 1/4". It always depends on the optics you're using, but if you want to see DOF tests and image quality we can expect from this camera, take a look at any Silicon Imaging 2K test clip and I'm sure you'll be surprised.

Paul Curtis · March 27th, 2008, 11:38 AM

>I don't see the point on using 3 sensors anymore.

There is one issue with these single sensor solutions and that is that you cannot apply gain to each colour channel separately to balance for lighting conditions whilst shooting.

The sensors are native daylight and under tungsten there is a benefit to applying gain to each channel to avoid clipping other channels. With a single sensor you're fixed in that regard.

3 mono sensors are also more sensitive as the bayer mask absorbs some light.

Having said that a single raw file is very useful. 2/3rds DOF is good so long as you're using very fast lenses. And some of the machine vision lenses do seem pretty nice.

Streampix works but from a UI perspective needs a lot of work if you're going to use it in the field. Perhaps that is something that norpix would consider? This isn't really streampixes target audience and that shows with the UI they have.

I am looking forward to seeing some images! I've been playing with CCD sensors but blooming is an ever present problem with wide open apertures and extremes of contrast.

hurry up, get some frames up :)

cheers
paul

Nicky Campos · March 27th, 2008, 12:03 PM

Jose... Im confused - you say that its ready to shoot but you yourself have not shot anything yet?... Is their a practical way to shoot with this camera in normal situations? (eg. outside on the street)

Im really trying hard to understand things here... So here it goes -

Order sumix camera
Connect C-mount lens
Plug Gig-Ethernet cable from cam into laptop
Use supplied sumix software to monitor and control camera.

It sounds so easy but everyone talks as if their waiting for things to happen (eg. streampix software,etc.)

Surely their is a catch? Is the sumix software usable by a normal (non-code) person like myself?

Please help!!!

Jose A. Garcia · March 27th, 2008, 12:47 PM

Nicky, don't worry. There's no catch.

I can't post anything yet because I need to buy a couple of Cat6 ethernet cables, which are basically simple ethernet cables with GigE support. That's all.

You can capture sequences using the software from Sumix. The only problem is that software is not made for filming purposes but to control every single aspect of the sensor, so there're a few options we won't use an others that show info we need but do it in a non-cinematography way. Once you get used to these controls, you can use Sumix software to shoot everything you need.

What are the pros when using StreamPix? Mainly RAW Cineform files. Smaller and easier to control in post. Cons? It's not made for filming purposes either.

I really think we should have a software specifically made to use this camera for digital cinema.

Daniel, are you sure StreamPix will cover everything we need? I know recording directly to cineform is a great option but maybe we need something closer to the SI2K interface to be really comfortable when shooting.

Nicky Campos · March 27th, 2008, 03:50 PM

Ok... I see :)

Where can I see some GOOD examples of footage shot with the sumix camera?

Is the software sumix supplies practical to use for someone like me who is not a code geek?... Im just wondering how hard it would be, or maybe we can wait for streampix?

Thanks for your patience.

Daniel Lipats · March 27th, 2008, 04:23 PM

IMHO the software that comes with the camera is good for testing but I don't think its in any condition to be put to use on a production.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

Daniel, are you sure StreamPix will cover everything we need? I know recording directly to cineform is a great option but maybe we need something closer to the SI2K interface to be really comfortable when shooting.

I can't say that it will be exactly what you want. As far as im concerned Streampix 3 appears to have everything I would need. Granted, its not perfect. But it will do all of the functions I am concerned about. Just some things off the top of my head...

1 button record/stop
1 button snapshot
frame zoom controls (focusing/details)
fit image to window (not cropped, will to work under any screen resolution)
playback mode
realtime histogram
color balance / levels / lut
brightness/contrast/gamma

Looks like if you plug your mic into the computer it will capture audio too.
The interface is touch screen friendly, interface buttons can be made bigger.

You should get a trial and try it out for yourself.

I have some feature requests but will worry about that later, I just want to have the camera supported asap. One simple thing I would like to see some sort of overlay screen guides added to help shoot for 16:9, 4:3, 1:85:1, 2:39:1, ect. I will probably just use a bit of tape on the lcd but this would be a good feature.

Really, from what I can tell Streampix provides most of the same functionality as the SI-2K DVR software. However, a lot of the important things such as camera settings, white balance, ect we can't see yet because its just not implemented.

Oh, on my wish list... Something like SI-2K's "Look Library"... Better yet, if its legal would be great to have compatibility with their format. Same/similar sensor right? Should work.
http://www.siliconimaging.com/Digita...ing_looks.html

Ali Husain · March 27th, 2008, 07:58 PM

still haven't seen any user-created video from this camera. a good-looking video sample will go a long way to generating sales: even the standard "here is my cat" video.

Jose A. Garcia · March 27th, 2008, 08:01 PM

Very soon...

Daniel Lipats · March 27th, 2008, 08:18 PM

Jose,

Let me know if you got my email.

nevermind. -edit

Jose A. Garcia · March 28th, 2008, 01:27 PM

First test!

After a few ugly tests and a couple of little problems (everything's ok now, don't worry) I'm posting my official first test. Well, it's not a cat. It's my girlfriend and our dog.

The Sumix software for this cam is always under development. In fact Daniel and I are constantly contacting them to include new features or change things. I tell you this because the framerate selector is not yet implemented, so this sequence was recorded at 43fps uncompressed and then encoded to 25p HD-Divx 6, so it looks slower than you'd expect.

The clip doesn't have any CC other than the white balance inside cam.

http://www.sinproblema.net/FirstTest.avi

Hope you like it. I do.

Kyle Presley · March 28th, 2008, 02:07 PM

Thanks so much for the test. What is your opinion of the debayer algorithm of the Sumix software? I was not impressed with the tests posted on the website and it's really the only thing holding me back from purchasing one of these. Again thanks for the test. Anyway to see an uncompressed frame?

March 27th, 2008, 08:18 PM	#208
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	Jose, Let me know if you got my email. nevermind. -edit Last edited by Daniel Lipats; March 27th, 2008 at 10:00 PM.

March 27th, 2008, 05:12 AM	#196
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Hi Ronald, This is my setup from side to side: - Cinevate Mattebox - Redrock Micro FollowFocus - Xenarc Technologies 700TSV 7" Touchscreen LCD http://www.xenarc.com/product/700tsv.html - Optics (Computar 12-75mm - Angenieux 12-120mm - 3 Canon FD 35mm lenses 28mm/50mm/100mm with C-Mount adapter) - Camera - Forcet miniPC with a Core2Duo 2,40Ghz processor and 4Gb of RAM http://www.forcet.com/mini_PC_9650M/...ediacenter.asp (Sorry it's in Spanish) - Optional external battery pack http://www.batteryspace.com/index.as...OD&ProdID=3198 Everything for about $7,000. Less than a single SI2K Mini without any accesory, computer or lens. I'm expecting to have the full operative camera in a few months.

March 27th, 2008, 08:23 AM	#197
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	sound great is you CPU box with a fan? still not knowing what streampix will give for file formats to edit the stuff and white balance will it do that as it is a 1 CCD with Bayer a Cannon with 3 CCD could it do the same trick sometimes used the same price range. What is with film look DOF exactly going on in this aetup

March 27th, 2008, 09:16 AM	#198
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	Right now my test setup is made up of 3 components. I'm using a full size desktop PC with a case that has a handle on the top for transportation, a 7" touch screen LCD, and the camera. Setup time is about... ~5 min or so, the longest part is waiting for the PC to POST and XP to boot. This kind of setup is not practical for a moving camera unless placed on a platform such as a dolly. Because a monitor is necessary to focus and configure the camera its really not a good idea to just wonder off with only the camera in your hands. Without the LCD you have no idea what your looking at, if its in focus, and even if you have an optical viewfinder your exposure is only a gamble. VGA cables tend to be big and thick, your also running another cable to the LCD to supply power. The best setup is if the camera, lcd, and computer could be mounted on rods. Its possible with the mini PC products, its just finding a good balance of PC hardware, power usage, and price. I'm going to wait for the StreamPix 3 software to support the camera before I start buying computer hardware. I want to know the minimal hardware specs I can get away with. Smaller computers weigh less and have more battery life.

March 27th, 2008, 10:22 AM	#199
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	I can't wait to see some of your tests Daniel! My PoE injector arrived today but unfortunately, it came without any cables, so this afternoon I'll go and buy a couple of large Cat6 ethernet cables. It looks like I'm cursed! I'm not going to believe it the first time I get to shoot anything with the Sumix!

March 27th, 2008, 10:39 AM	#200
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Ronald, Yes, the minipc in my setup has fan. Don't know about the white balance inside StreamPix. I'm sure they include something, but anyway, StreamPix outputs RAW Cineform AVI so there you have your two answers: the format is AVI and can be edited in any NLE system such as Premiere or Vegas and with RAW data you can do a post white balance if you're not happy with the results. But anyway I'm sure StreamPix will have WB. This is not 1 CCD, it's 1 CMOS, which means an image quality closer to film with just one sensor. I don't see the point on using 3 sensors anymore. And finally, DOF. This CMOS sensor is 2/3" which gives a DOF much closer to cinema than a standard sized sensor (CCD or CMOS) which is normally between 1/3" and 1/4". It always depends on the optics you're using, but if you want to see DOF tests and image quality we can expect from this camera, take a look at any Silicon Imaging 2K test clip and I'm sure you'll be surprised.

March 27th, 2008, 11:38 AM	#201
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	>I don't see the point on using 3 sensors anymore. There is one issue with these single sensor solutions and that is that you cannot apply gain to each colour channel separately to balance for lighting conditions whilst shooting. The sensors are native daylight and under tungsten there is a benefit to applying gain to each channel to avoid clipping other channels. With a single sensor you're fixed in that regard. 3 mono sensors are also more sensitive as the bayer mask absorbs some light. Having said that a single raw file is very useful. 2/3rds DOF is good so long as you're using very fast lenses. And some of the machine vision lenses do seem pretty nice. Streampix works but from a UI perspective needs a lot of work if you're going to use it in the field. Perhaps that is something that norpix would consider? This isn't really streampixes target audience and that shows with the UI they have. I am looking forward to seeing some images! I've been playing with CCD sensors but blooming is an ever present problem with wide open apertures and extremes of contrast. hurry up, get some frames up :) cheers paul

March 27th, 2008, 12:03 PM	#202
Nicky Campos Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 35	Jose... Im confused - you say that its ready to shoot but you yourself have not shot anything yet?... Is their a practical way to shoot with this camera in normal situations? (eg. outside on the street) Im really trying hard to understand things here... So here it goes - Order sumix camera Connect C-mount lens Plug Gig-Ethernet cable from cam into laptop Use supplied sumix software to monitor and control camera. It sounds so easy but everyone talks as if their waiting for things to happen (eg. streampix software,etc.) Surely their is a catch? Is the sumix software usable by a normal (non-code) person like myself? Please help!!!

March 27th, 2008, 12:47 PM	#203
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Nicky, don't worry. There's no catch. I can't post anything yet because I need to buy a couple of Cat6 ethernet cables, which are basically simple ethernet cables with GigE support. That's all. You can capture sequences using the software from Sumix. The only problem is that software is not made for filming purposes but to control every single aspect of the sensor, so there're a few options we won't use an others that show info we need but do it in a non-cinematography way. Once you get used to these controls, you can use Sumix software to shoot everything you need. What are the pros when using StreamPix? Mainly RAW Cineform files. Smaller and easier to control in post. Cons? It's not made for filming purposes either. I really think we should have a software specifically made to use this camera for digital cinema. Daniel, are you sure StreamPix will cover everything we need? I know recording directly to cineform is a great option but maybe we need something closer to the SI2K interface to be really comfortable when shooting.

March 27th, 2008, 03:50 PM	#204
Nicky Campos Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 35	Ok... I see :) Where can I see some GOOD examples of footage shot with the sumix camera? Is the software sumix supplies practical to use for someone like me who is not a code geek?... Im just wondering how hard it would be, or maybe we can wait for streampix? Thanks for your patience.

March 27th, 2008, 07:58 PM	#206
Ali Husain Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 141	still haven't seen any user-created video from this camera. a good-looking video sample will go a long way to generating sales: even the standard "here is my cat" video.

March 27th, 2008, 08:01 PM	#207
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Very soon...

March 28th, 2008, 01:27 PM	#209
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	First test! After a few ugly tests and a couple of little problems (everything's ok now, don't worry) I'm posting my official first test. Well, it's not a cat. It's my girlfriend and our dog. The Sumix software for this cam is always under development. In fact Daniel and I are constantly contacting them to include new features or change things. I tell you this because the framerate selector is not yet implemented, so this sequence was recorded at 43fps uncompressed and then encoded to 25p HD-Divx 6, so it looks slower than you'd expect. The clip doesn't have any CC other than the white balance inside cam. http://www.sinproblema.net/FirstTest.avi Hope you like it. I do.

March 28th, 2008, 02:07 PM	#210
Kyle Presley New Boot Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Chatsworth, GA Posts: 7	Thanks so much for the test. What is your opinion of the debayer algorithm of the Sumix software? I was not impressed with the tests posted on the website and it's really the only thing holding me back from purchasing one of these. Again thanks for the test. Anyway to see an uncompressed frame?