ME66 need K6 with Beachtek? at DVinfo.net

Brendan Getchel · April 28th, 2003, 09:28 AM

If you already have an XLR adapter like a Beachtek or Sign that can provide 48V phantom power, do you need to buy the K6 power module for the Senn ME66?

Any advantages or disadvantages?

Is phantom power necessary for performance purposes, or just for long runs?

Thanks.

Brian Pink · April 28th, 2003, 09:33 AM

yes you still need the K6. people report somewhat cleaner audio when using phantom power versus the battery. its also a little lighter.

Robert Knecht Schmidt · April 28th, 2003, 10:27 AM

In my experience cleaner audio almost always results from removing dirty AC from the signal chain as much as possible--hence, battery power is the way to go.

If there's a rationale for phantom power reducing noise, I'd like to hear it.

Brian Pink · April 28th, 2003, 11:30 AM

i just saw this on a thread on dv.com

http://www.dv.com/forums/showReplies...3&tid=67600008

where Jay Rose ( the resident audio expert there ) says:

"The sound quality is slightly better on phantom (with either module), when shooting very loud sounds."

so i guess "better" was the wrong choice of words. "different" ? =)

Bryan Beasleigh · April 28th, 2003, 02:51 PM

The maximum input sound level is higher. Esentially Jay noted that such a sound level would probably deafen us anyway. The input sensitivety is very slightly more sensitive and the dynamic range is higher.

ie the AT 835
Maximum Input Sound Level
Phantom: 130 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D.
Battery: 115 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D.

Dynamic range
Phantom: 106 dB, 1 kHz at Max.SPL
battery: 91 dB, 1 kHz at Max. SPL

Open circuit sensitivety
Phantom: -38 dB (12.5 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa
Battery: -39 dB (11.2 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa

These "improvements" could most likely only measured by instrumentation.

Robert Knecht Schmidt · April 28th, 2003, 05:23 PM

"Dynamic range
Phantom: 106 dB, 1 kHz at Max.SPL
battery: 91 dB, 1 kHz at Max. SPL"

Moreover, with the theoretical maximum quantization dynamic range of a 16 bit depth audio system such as that found in the DV standard being ~96 dB, the slightly wider dynamic range ostensibly offered by using phantom power would be negated by quantization noise inherent to the digital recording medium.

Batteries--less hassle, less chance of dirty AC or noise from ground loops--all around a better choice.

In my experiences on the set, just about all the 60 Hz hums heard by the audio guy vanished once we got phantom power out of the equation.

Brian Pink · April 28th, 2003, 05:51 PM

on just that mic or on any mic? and, was the camera plugged into the wall or running on batteries? also, what device was supplying the phantom power?

Erik J Na · April 28th, 2003, 07:12 PM

batteries-less hassle, less chance to get noise. I couldn't agree more. but 106dB vs 91dB: I don't think this is the slightly wider dynamic range. it's a huge difference. even though your cam can only accept 16 bit digital audio, if you use higher bit rate recording device with proper sync generator AD/DA device, such as UV22 installed apogee, SBM, or other sample rate converter which dithers for 24bit 20/16 bit word length without losing sound detail, the result is big different.

some of high-end mic manufacturer such as, DPA (former B & K) or Schoeps uses its own power supply to provide precise power ( 48V phamtom, 130V, 15V depends on model ) for their microphones in order to get the maximum result.

If the sound is very important for ur gig, I wouldn't use battery powered condeser mic unless it's really really necessary.

April 28th, 2003, 09:28 AM	#1
Brendan Getchel Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Waterbury, CT Posts: 101	ME66 need K6 with Beachtek? If you already have an XLR adapter like a Beachtek or Sign that can provide 48V phantom power, do you need to buy the K6 power module for the Senn ME66? Any advantages or disadvantages? Is phantom power necessary for performance purposes, or just for long runs? Thanks. __________________ Dumb Guy.

April 28th, 2003, 09:33 AM	#2
Brian Pink Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 94	yes you still need the K6. people report somewhat cleaner audio when using phantom power versus the battery. its also a little lighter. __________________ This is the way the world ends.

April 28th, 2003, 10:27 AM	#3
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	In my experience cleaner audio almost always results from removing dirty AC from the signal chain as much as possible--hence, battery power is the way to go. If there's a rationale for phantom power reducing noise, I'd like to hear it. __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 28th, 2003, 11:30 AM	#4
Brian Pink Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 94	i just saw this on a thread on dv.com http://www.dv.com/forums/showReplies...3&tid=67600008 where Jay Rose ( the resident audio expert there ) says: "The sound quality is slightly better on phantom (with either module), when shooting very loud sounds." so i guess "better" was the wrong choice of words. "different" ? =) __________________ This is the way the world ends.

April 28th, 2003, 05:23 PM	#6
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	"Dynamic range Phantom: 106 dB, 1 kHz at Max.SPL battery: 91 dB, 1 kHz at Max. SPL" Moreover, with the theoretical maximum quantization dynamic range of a 16 bit depth audio system such as that found in the DV standard being ~96 dB, the slightly wider dynamic range ostensibly offered by using phantom power would be negated by quantization noise inherent to the digital recording medium. Batteries--less hassle, less chance of dirty AC or noise from ground loops--all around a better choice. In my experiences on the set, just about all the 60 Hz hums heard by the audio guy vanished once we got phantom power out of the equation. __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 28th, 2003, 02:51 PM	#5
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	The maximum input sound level is higher. Esentially Jay noted that such a sound level would probably deafen us anyway. The input sensitivety is very slightly more sensitive and the dynamic range is higher. ie the AT 835 Maximum Input Sound Level Phantom: 130 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D. Battery: 115 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D. Dynamic range Phantom: 106 dB, 1 kHz at Max.SPL battery: 91 dB, 1 kHz at Max. SPL Open circuit sensitivety Phantom: -38 dB (12.5 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa Battery: -39 dB (11.2 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa These "improvements" could most likely only measured by instrumentation.

April 28th, 2003, 05:51 PM	#7
Brian Pink Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 94	on just that mic or on any mic? and, was the camera plugged into the wall or running on batteries? also, what device was supplying the phantom power? __________________ This is the way the world ends.

April 28th, 2003, 07:12 PM	#8
Erik J Na Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Connecticut, US Posts: 29	batteries-less hassle, less chance to get noise. I couldn't agree more. but 106dB vs 91dB: I don't think this is the slightly wider dynamic range. it's a huge difference. even though your cam can only accept 16 bit digital audio, if you use higher bit rate recording device with proper sync generator AD/DA device, such as UV22 installed apogee, SBM, or other sample rate converter which dithers for 24bit 20/16 bit word length without losing sound detail, the result is big different. some of high-end mic manufacturer such as, DPA (former B & K) or Schoeps uses its own power supply to provide precise power ( 48V phamtom, 130V, 15V depends on model ) for their microphones in order to get the maximum result. If the sound is very important for ur gig, I wouldn't use battery powered condeser mic unless it's really really necessary. __________________ JN