Audio editing with multiple layers

Jeff Mack · February 6th, 2007, 12:07 PM

I'll probably get boo'd for this but what if you tried this. If you have great mic control on the dialog and your budget allows, wht not set a couple of additional mics up say near the kitchen, hostess stand and bar. If you record at those locations simultaneously, you might be able to introduce your levels of those additional tracks to play with your vocal track. For example, clattering dishes could be heard at a level under the vocal. Maybe a pan of the hostess stand in the background can pick up the introduction and seating of another guest. Same with the bar area. By making those tracks play in and around the vocals, you might be able to introduce a "cleaner" background noise.

Just a thought?

Jeff

Peter Malcolm · February 12th, 2007, 01:38 AM

I did it.

I was lucky enough to have a friend of my brother's, an owner of another restaurant, to lend us it just for filming on his day off. The place was quiet and the ME66 did wonders. I don't know what I'd do for the audio without it, however the damn wire at the coming from the microphone kept hitting the boom with movement, so I'm going to have to edit that out in Adobe Soundbooth. Otherwise, in editing I literally went from one cut to the next with no audio transitions. Room tone played throughout but it's next to nothing.

I'll be submitting my film to On The Lot (thelot.com); hopefully it will help me go places.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Brett Sherman · February 12th, 2007, 09:59 AM

Another idea would be to use tiny lavaliers. They can be made invisible if they are small enough. They are omni so they pickup room noise, however, they will be closer to the mouths than a boom, so it might lower the noise in relation to the dialog. There's no way to tell which will work better without a test. It will also mean that you don't have to worry about having a good boom operator. It would probably cost more to rent since you'd need two mics and a good lavalier mic alone(no power supply) is about $200. If they are moving, then it needs to be wireless.

I'd avoid ADR. I always think it sounds fake. I can spot high-end Hollywood productions that use it sometimes. If you record it in a dry environment, like a studio, you have to recreate ambience with a good reverb (convolution ones work well for this). Also it depends on the capabilities of your actors. They have to recreate the exact same dialogue twice. Having them worry about getting every single word right may interfere with the quality of their performance. It might end up sounding "over-acted" or "dull".

Seth Bloombaum · February 12th, 2007, 11:28 AM

Congrats on wrapping your shoot, Peter.

Yes, it is true, "a stitch in time saves nine" as far as production goes, meaning that a few things done right in production can save you endless hours in post-production.

For future reference, most boom operators will use bongo-ties to secure the cable to the boom. These can be the girl's hair ties with two large clear plastic beads on an elastic band, or, the pro version with a wood toggle. Or, just put a couple twists and wrap the cable around the boom.

Of course monitoring with headphones should catch these things during rehearsals and takes...

Glad things worked out for you.

Harley Flanagan · February 12th, 2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm

4. Dub their voices over their mouth movement on the screen, in a quiet place such as a car (i.e. ADR).

The issue with this plan is I'm NOT confident about 4. I've never done this before and I'm very worried it won't work out well at all. Also, there is one shot where there is a waiter who comes into the scene and talks to the woman for one or two lines. This is a person who's lent us his restaurant out of his kindness, and I'm sure he would not feel comfortable to leave work and do his lines. If I have one shot ADR and the other not, it may sound very 'off'.

This has got to be one of the most clever troll jobs ever. No way is this real...

Peter Malcolm · February 13th, 2007, 11:35 PM

What is? The fact about the restaurant?

Actually, I didn't film at the place I had originally intended, and it turned out MUCH better. I filmed at a restaurant named "Mangi & Bevi" in Toronto. The owner is a friend of my brother's and he opened her doors up on the only day the store would otherwise close. I'm quite grateful to her. The actor who played the waiter actually is one of them who works there.

If you're talking about my ADR self-suggestion... well... I'm an amateur who's never really considered sound so much in my filmmaking.

Steve House · February 14th, 2007, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm

What is? The fact about the restaurant?

Actually, I didn't film at the place I had originally intended, and it turned out MUCH better. I filmed at a restaurant named "Mangi & Bevi" in Toronto. The owner is a friend of my brother's and he opened her doors up on the only day the store would otherwise close. I'm quite grateful to her. The actor who played the waiter actually is one of them who works there.

If you're talking about my ADR self-suggestion... well... I'm an amateur who's never really considered sound so much in my filmmaking.

Congratulations!

Now take a decent portable recorder back to the restaurant when it's open and busy and and just sit at a table in the middle of the place and record about 10 minutes of background sound. Lay that in under your dialog during post and you'll be amazed how it all comes together.

Peter Malcolm · February 15th, 2007, 11:39 AM

I already took a room tone of the restaurant after I was done filming.

It was empty -- as it was supposed to be, so I don't need to return. The film's already been finished, uploaded and submitted to On the Lot.

Steve House · February 15th, 2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm

I already took a room tone of the restaurant after I was done filming.

It was empty -- as it was supposed to be, so I don't need to return. The film's already been finished, uploaded and submitted to On the Lot.

What I was referring to is very different from room tone. Instead it's a FX recording of background ambience used to create the illusion that the restaurant is full of other customers even though they're not visible in the shot. Since your film is done it's moot but you might keep it in mind for next time.

I think "ambience" and "room tone" are often confused. Room tone is the sound of the space itself, the 'sound of silence' if you will. Ambience, OTOH, is the sound of the sonic landscape surrounding the scene we're watching, the environment in which the action takes place. For instance, the ambience of a scene taking place on an aircraft in flight might include the sound of the engines, a low buzz of conversation from the other passengers, that sort thing - environmental sounds that make the place come alive but are not directly tied to speech by characters or specific actions and events visible on the screen.

Best of luck in the competition - will be looking for your work on the show!

Peter Malcolm · February 16th, 2007, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve House

What I was referring to is very different from room tone. Instead it's a FX recording of background ambience used to create the illusion that the restaurant is full of other customers even though they're not visible in the shot. Since your film is done it's moot but you might keep it in mind for next time.

Don't worry, I understood what you said. By saying "it was supposed to be" empty I meant within the film, there was supposed to be no one there but my actors and a waiter. I get the difference between room tone and ambiance ;) You're right -- if I wanted to create the illusion that it was full, I would have recorded a populated restaurant separately.
In fact, I did this with my single "outside" shot. It was actually filmed inside, but I adjusted the blue curves to make it look outside, and added some traffic ambiance. I did this because I didn't want the restaurant to be within another building, which it was. I had a still shot of the door as the protagonist walks through it. You can't tell if it's outside or inside -- I'm happy with my efforts there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve House

Best of luck in the competition - will be looking for your work on the show!

Thank you very much, Steve. I'm crossing my fingers. Apparently within the past couple days they've received over 1000 submissions. I'm only doing this because I personally believe I'm of perfect age and lots of the other films... well... aren't that good.

I'll be sure to let you guys know once my film is validated by the staff on the site. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

February 6th, 2007, 12:07 PM	#16
Jeff Mack Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 195	Another Idea I'll probably get boo'd for this but what if you tried this. If you have great mic control on the dialog and your budget allows, wht not set a couple of additional mics up say near the kitchen, hostess stand and bar. If you record at those locations simultaneously, you might be able to introduce your levels of those additional tracks to play with your vocal track. For example, clattering dishes could be heard at a level under the vocal. Maybe a pan of the hostess stand in the background can pick up the introduction and seating of another guest. Same with the bar area. By making those tracks play in and around the vocals, you might be able to introduce a "cleaner" background noise. Just a thought? Jeff

February 12th, 2007, 01:38 AM	#17
Peter Malcolm Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 53	I did it. I was lucky enough to have a friend of my brother's, an owner of another restaurant, to lend us it just for filming on his day off. The place was quiet and the ME66 did wonders. I don't know what I'd do for the audio without it, however the damn wire at the coming from the microphone kept hitting the boom with movement, so I'm going to have to edit that out in Adobe Soundbooth. Otherwise, in editing I literally went from one cut to the next with no audio transitions. Room tone played throughout but it's next to nothing. I'll be submitting my film to On The Lot (thelot.com); hopefully it will help me go places. Thanks for your help, everyone.

February 12th, 2007, 09:59 AM	#18
Brett Sherman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mount Rainier, MD Posts: 428	Another idea would be to use tiny lavaliers. They can be made invisible if they are small enough. They are omni so they pickup room noise, however, they will be closer to the mouths than a boom, so it might lower the noise in relation to the dialog. There's no way to tell which will work better without a test. It will also mean that you don't have to worry about having a good boom operator. It would probably cost more to rent since you'd need two mics and a good lavalier mic alone(no power supply) is about $200. If they are moving, then it needs to be wireless. I'd avoid ADR. I always think it sounds fake. I can spot high-end Hollywood productions that use it sometimes. If you record it in a dry environment, like a studio, you have to recreate ambience with a good reverb (convolution ones work well for this). Also it depends on the capabilities of your actors. They have to recreate the exact same dialogue twice. Having them worry about getting every single word right may interfere with the quality of their performance. It might end up sounding "over-acted" or "dull".

February 12th, 2007, 11:28 AM	#19
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Congrats on wrapping your shoot, Peter. Yes, it is true, "a stitch in time saves nine" as far as production goes, meaning that a few things done right in production can save you endless hours in post-production. For future reference, most boom operators will use bongo-ties to secure the cable to the boom. These can be the girl's hair ties with two large clear plastic beads on an elastic band, or, the pro version with a wood toggle. Or, just put a couple twists and wrap the cable around the boom. Of course monitoring with headphones should catch these things during rehearsals and takes... Glad things worked out for you.

February 13th, 2007, 11:35 PM	#21
Peter Malcolm Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 53	What is? The fact about the restaurant? Actually, I didn't film at the place I had originally intended, and it turned out MUCH better. I filmed at a restaurant named "Mangi & Bevi" in Toronto. The owner is a friend of my brother's and he opened her doors up on the only day the store would otherwise close. I'm quite grateful to her. The actor who played the waiter actually is one of them who works there. If you're talking about my ADR self-suggestion... well... I'm an amateur who's never really considered sound so much in my filmmaking.

February 15th, 2007, 11:39 AM	#23
Peter Malcolm Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 53	I already took a room tone of the restaurant after I was done filming. It was empty -- as it was supposed to be, so I don't need to return. The film's already been finished, uploaded and submitted to On the Lot.