low cost powered monitors?

Bennis Hahn · January 29th, 2007, 07:36 PM

Ty,

Understand that you know more then I could ever hope to and I fully respect your opinion on the matter.

However, they do go lower then 75Hz, by a long shot. I have been using them (not claiming to be a great mixer) for the past three years now and yes, they do go lower.

I was trying to keep in mind his situation and financial standpoint.

But again, I would bow to Mr. Ford's word before mine on any day, and twice on Sundays...

Ty Ford · January 29th, 2007, 08:32 PM

I used to think that but I was recently very surprised to hear the phasing in some tracks, only to find that the difference was 3 mSec. This was the difference between an analog wireless mic and a digital wireless mic, with both mics clipped to me.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Steve House · January 29th, 2007, 09:39 PM

Ty or anyone, just wondering if you've heard anything or had experience with Blue Sky monitor systems? I read earlier this evening that Skywalker Sound this past year has equipped all their edit rooms with Blue Sky 'System 1' 2.1 systems which seems a pretty good reccomendation. Full compass lists their System 1 2.1 system with 2 monitors and a sub for $1800 and they also have their pro desktop system, slightly smaller monitors and sub for about $1200. Wondering if they're worth a look.

Ty Ford · January 29th, 2007, 10:01 PM

nope, not yet.

If I was going for new monitors, I'd go for ADAMs at this point in time.

Regards,

Ty

Douglas Spotted Eagle · January 30th, 2007, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve House

Ty or anyone, just wondering if you've heard anything or had experience with Blue Sky monitor systems? I read earlier this evening that Skywalker Sound this past year has equipped all their edit rooms with Blue Sky 'System 1' 2.1 systems which seems a pretty good reccomendation. Full compass lists their System 1 2.1 system with 2 monitors and a sub for $1800 and they also have their pro desktop system, slightly smaller monitors and sub for about $1200. Wondering if they're worth a look.

We have a BlueSky system in our smaller room, and it's very impressive. Blue Sky also provided a 5.1 system for a tour we did a couple years back when they were developing their smaller system, and it was a crankin' sweet system, IMO. Skywalker has indeed put System 1's into their smaller edit rooms.
IMO, very much worth a listen.

Ty Ford · January 30th, 2007, 06:36 AM

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what degree of audio excellence is expected from a Skywalker small edit room? Did Skywalker pay for them or were they "placed?"

Regards,

Ty Ford

Steve House · January 30th, 2007, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what degree of audio excellence is expected from a Skywalker small edit room? Did Skywalker pay for them or were they "placed?"

Regards,

Ty Ford

That's why I asked the question :) The fact that their rooms are so equipped can have all sorts of meanings.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · January 30th, 2007, 09:33 AM

I'm not sure there is a "right" way to take the question. We demand a very high level of excellence out of our smaller rooms.
Having done work on several occasions at Skywalker, I'll say that excellence and detail is simply part of the flow, period, whether it's a sound design room or scoring room. Do they expect smaller rooms to equal the Kurasawa or Kubrick rooms? Of course not. But the direct edit bays are also not just converted offices or bedrooms, either.
I also don't believe Skywalker would sell themselves out over something as miniscule as a low-cost set of monitors if they didn't really believe in them whether they were "placed" or not. Being the most prestigious audio facility in the world demands a certain level of integrity, IMO. You can see photos of the rooms on the Skywalker site, and you'll note that while not all of the 36 direct edit bays have BlueSky monitors, most of them do.
Considering the list of very high profile projects that have been mixed, recorded, or edited on BlueSky systems, I'd again suggest they're worth a listen. They may not be for you, they may not be the best, but they're a damn good monitoring system in their price bracket.

Ty Ford · January 30th, 2007, 10:12 AM

Thanks Doug,

Your insight about the rooms is exceedingly valuable.

On a parallel topic, Yamaha NS10 monitors got a huge lift (and not necessarily a deserved one) by being seen on console meter bridges. Somehow people got the impression that NS10s were killer monitors. They weren't/aren't really, but seeing them on those big consoles on the cover of MIX magazine gave that impression.

They are good as another set of monitors to help give you a better idea of what you're doing, but I'd hate to mix a project on them as my only monitors or my primary monitors.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Stephen Pruitt · January 30th, 2007, 12:24 PM

Ty is quite correct. . . NS-10s are very popular monitors. Even more so are the Mackie HR-824s. I actually have a pair of those right now, and while they are used in more "indie" studios than any other powered monitors, I wouldn't recommend them for critical work at all. But for a smallish bookshelf speaker, they sure do go deep. I think they are only down about 3db at 37hz!

Stephen

Douglas Spotted Eagle · January 30th, 2007, 12:46 PM

Let's come back to point...
The OP is regarding low-cost, useable monitors.
No one would mix "critical" on NS10's, Adams, or Mackie 824's, IMO, unless they're in a very familiar and well-tuned room.
That said, as much as I've *always* hated either version of the NS10's, with or without tissue on them, it's also very arguable that more mixes were churned out on these monitors during the 80's than any other monitor system. I personally can't stand the sound of any Japanese-made monitor, even today. But my opinion is beside the point.
Where do you define "critical?" Is it the mix for a major motion picture while mixing on a 100 channel SSL and a 20' screen? Is it for a PBS-bound doc, monitored in a smallish room while viewing on a 19" monitor? Is it for the web? What is *your* particular workflow?
All that said, I've participated in nearly 30 Emmy-winning projects, all of which have been mixed on either Mackie 824's or 626's. Not to mention countless commercial spots, documentaries, etc. We got a great deal on the BlueSky system since we participated in a tradeshow event with them, and I'm very pleased with them for sound design and music monitoring. I'd feel very comfortable mixing on them if I needed to do a mix in our smaller room.
It's a little amusing to read so many opinions on the monitors themselves, with virtually no discussion on how to make the best of whatever you've got via positioning, tuning the room, isolating the monitor from the desktop, etc.
A great monitor sounds bad in a bad room, and a mismanaged monitor sounds poor in a great room.
When it's all said and done, it comes down to how much you can afford, what you need monitors for, how they'll fit into your room acoustics, and how much you know about setting them up properly whether you're purchasing high end or low end monitors. It's no different than purchasing a video monitor for color correction. The only reason there are fewer opinions about color correction monitors is that there are significantly fewer choices. Video or audio, either the image is as neutral and accurate as possible, or it's not.

Jon Fairhurst · January 30th, 2007, 02:04 PM

Some budget perspective...

My HS freshman son has been playing flute for four years, and electric guitar for a couple. One day he decided to try making some recordings into his computer with ACID, the on-board sound card and some hopeless passive PC speakers. He didn't want to "bug Dad" and use my equipment - only to get kicked off when I'm using it. He tried going direct from his stomp boxes, as well as mic'ing his amp with my old ATM41 dynamic, going through a passive XLR to 1/4" transformer.

With no signal to speak of in or out, it just wasn't working.

So, did I get him top pro gear? Hell no! I'm not rich, and he's just learning the ropes.

We went out and bought a $50 set of Altec Lansing computer speakers, and a $40 Behringer mixer with one mic preamp. I showed him how the speakers overboosted the bass, turned down the subwoofer and called it an audio monitor. (He can also plug in my Sennheiser headphones for alternate monitors.)

His results improved immensely. We upgraded stuff that simply wasn't working for stuff that did. He now has some tools that he can play and learn with.

"So", he says, "what should I upgrade first?"

"Well", I replied, "your soundcard is the weakest link. You'll need to spend $200 for a decent one, $500 for a really nice one and sky's the limit for the ultimate preamp/A2D/clock system. The other first move might be to buy an SM57 mic. It's been used to mic more amps than everything else combined, and will last a lifetime."

We will see if he upgrades his soundcard first (weakest link), or if he buys an SM57 (lasts a lifetime - money spent once). This spring he can start mowing lots of lawns.

But pretty soon he'll be asking the same monitor question. What can he afford that will sound great. The problem is that with $300 monitors, he'll be wanting to upgrade before he's taken the speakers out of the box. We'll see how it unfolds.

Abe Dolinger · February 4th, 2007, 01:03 PM

Does anyone have any advice on tuning a small room? My monitors are terrible, but I know I could get more out of them if I weren't going crazy trying to kill the reflections I'm getting. Is there a set of general rules I could work with?

Good to hear that ADAMs are recommended here, as I've been considering going with some lower-end ones.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · February 4th, 2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Dolinger

Does anyone have any advice on tuning a small room? My monitors are terrible, but I know I could get more out of them if I weren't going crazy trying to kill the reflections I'm getting. Is there a set of general rules I could work with?

Good to hear that ADAMs are recommended here, as I've been considering going with some lower-end ones.

Here is a short article from a couple years back.

Abe Dolinger · February 12th, 2007, 11:19 PM

Douglas,

Thanks for directing me. I was able to get some basic materials together and position a bit better, and I have been getting much more legible results. I appreciate you putting that together.

January 29th, 2007, 08:32 PM	#32
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	I used to think that but I was recently very surprised to hear the phasing in some tracks, only to find that the difference was 3 mSec. This was the difference between an analog wireless mic and a digital wireless mic, with both mics clipped to me. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

January 29th, 2007, 09:39 PM	#33
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	Ty or anyone, just wondering if you've heard anything or had experience with Blue Sky monitor systems? I read earlier this evening that Skywalker Sound this past year has equipped all their edit rooms with Blue Sky 'System 1' 2.1 systems which seems a pretty good reccomendation. Full compass lists their System 1 2.1 system with 2 monitors and a sub for $1800 and they also have their pro desktop system, slightly smaller monitors and sub for about $1200. Wondering if they're worth a look. __________________ Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

January 29th, 2007, 10:01 PM	#34
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	nope, not yet. If I was going for new monitors, I'd go for ADAMs at this point in time. Regards, Ty __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

January 30th, 2007, 06:36 AM	#36
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Please don't take this the wrong way, but what degree of audio excellence is expected from a Skywalker small edit room? Did Skywalker pay for them or were they "placed?" Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

January 30th, 2007, 09:33 AM	#38
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	I'm not sure there is a "right" way to take the question. We demand a very high level of excellence out of our smaller rooms. Having done work on several occasions at Skywalker, I'll say that excellence and detail is simply part of the flow, period, whether it's a sound design room or scoring room. Do they expect smaller rooms to equal the Kurasawa or Kubrick rooms? Of course not. But the direct edit bays are also not just converted offices or bedrooms, either. I also don't believe Skywalker would sell themselves out over something as miniscule as a low-cost set of monitors if they didn't really believe in them whether they were "placed" or not. Being the most prestigious audio facility in the world demands a certain level of integrity, IMO. You can see photos of the rooms on the Skywalker site, and you'll note that while not all of the 36 direct edit bays have BlueSky monitors, most of them do. Considering the list of very high profile projects that have been mixed, recorded, or edited on BlueSky systems, I'd again suggest they're worth a listen. They may not be for you, they may not be the best, but they're a damn good monitoring system in their price bracket. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

January 29th, 2007, 07:36 PM	#31
Bennis Hahn Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 221	Ty, Understand that you know more then I could ever hope to and I fully respect your opinion on the matter. However, they do go lower then 75Hz, by a long shot. I have been using them (not claiming to be a great mixer) for the past three years now and yes, they do go lower. I was trying to keep in mind his situation and financial standpoint. But again, I would bow to Mr. Ford's word before mine on any day, and twice on Sundays...

January 30th, 2007, 10:12 AM	#39
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Thanks Doug, Your insight about the rooms is exceedingly valuable. On a parallel topic, Yamaha NS10 monitors got a huge lift (and not necessarily a deserved one) by being seen on console meter bridges. Somehow people got the impression that NS10s were killer monitors. They weren't/aren't really, but seeing them on those big consoles on the cover of MIX magazine gave that impression. They are good as another set of monitors to help give you a better idea of what you're doing, but I'd hate to mix a project on them as my only monitors or my primary monitors. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

January 30th, 2007, 12:24 PM	#40
Stephen Pruitt Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Overland Park, KS Posts: 228	Ty is quite correct. . . NS-10s are very popular monitors. Even more so are the Mackie HR-824s. I actually have a pair of those right now, and while they are used in more "indie" studios than any other powered monitors, I wouldn't recommend them for critical work at all. But for a smallish bookshelf speaker, they sure do go deep. I think they are only down about 3db at 37hz! Stephen

January 30th, 2007, 12:46 PM	#41
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Let's come back to point... The OP is regarding low-cost, useable monitors. No one would mix "critical" on NS10's, Adams, or Mackie 824's, IMO, unless they're in a very familiar and well-tuned room. That said, as much as I've always hated either version of the NS10's, with or without tissue on them, it's also very arguable that more mixes were churned out on these monitors during the 80's than any other monitor system. I personally can't stand the sound of any Japanese-made monitor, even today. But my opinion is beside the point. Where do you define "critical?" Is it the mix for a major motion picture while mixing on a 100 channel SSL and a 20' screen? Is it for a PBS-bound doc, monitored in a smallish room while viewing on a 19" monitor? Is it for the web? What is your particular workflow? All that said, I've participated in nearly 30 Emmy-winning projects, all of which have been mixed on either Mackie 824's or 626's. Not to mention countless commercial spots, documentaries, etc. We got a great deal on the BlueSky system since we participated in a tradeshow event with them, and I'm very pleased with them for sound design and music monitoring. I'd feel very comfortable mixing on them if I needed to do a mix in our smaller room. It's a little amusing to read so many opinions on the monitors themselves, with virtually no discussion on how to make the best of whatever you've got via positioning, tuning the room, isolating the monitor from the desktop, etc. A great monitor sounds bad in a bad room, and a mismanaged monitor sounds poor in a great room. When it's all said and done, it comes down to how much you can afford, what you need monitors for, how they'll fit into your room acoustics, and how much you know about setting them up properly whether you're purchasing high end or low end monitors. It's no different than purchasing a video monitor for color correction. The only reason there are fewer opinions about color correction monitors is that there are significantly fewer choices. Video or audio, either the image is as neutral and accurate as possible, or it's not. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

January 30th, 2007, 02:04 PM	#42
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Some budget perspective... My HS freshman son has been playing flute for four years, and electric guitar for a couple. One day he decided to try making some recordings into his computer with ACID, the on-board sound card and some hopeless passive PC speakers. He didn't want to "bug Dad" and use my equipment - only to get kicked off when I'm using it. He tried going direct from his stomp boxes, as well as mic'ing his amp with my old ATM41 dynamic, going through a passive XLR to 1/4" transformer. With no signal to speak of in or out, it just wasn't working. So, did I get him top pro gear? Hell no! I'm not rich, and he's just learning the ropes. We went out and bought a $50 set of Altec Lansing computer speakers, and a $40 Behringer mixer with one mic preamp. I showed him how the speakers overboosted the bass, turned down the subwoofer and called it an audio monitor. (He can also plug in my Sennheiser headphones for alternate monitors.) His results improved immensely. We upgraded stuff that simply wasn't working for stuff that did. He now has some tools that he can play and learn with. "So", he says, "what should I upgrade first?" "Well", I replied, "your soundcard is the weakest link. You'll need to spend $200 for a decent one, $500 for a really nice one and sky's the limit for the ultimate preamp/A2D/clock system. The other first move might be to buy an SM57 mic. It's been used to mic more amps than everything else combined, and will last a lifetime." We will see if he upgrades his soundcard first (weakest link), or if he buys an SM57 (lasts a lifetime - money spent once). This spring he can start mowing lots of lawns. But pretty soon he'll be asking the same monitor question. What can he afford that will sound great. The problem is that with $300 monitors, he'll be wanting to upgrade before he's taken the speakers out of the box. We'll see how it unfolds. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 4th, 2007, 01:03 PM	#43
Abe Dolinger Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 111	Does anyone have any advice on tuning a small room? My monitors are terrible, but I know I could get more out of them if I weren't going crazy trying to kill the reflections I'm getting. Is there a set of general rules I could work with? Good to hear that ADAMs are recommended here, as I've been considering going with some lower-end ones.

February 12th, 2007, 11:19 PM	#45
Abe Dolinger Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 111	Douglas, Thanks for directing me. I was able to get some basic materials together and position a bit better, and I have been getting much more legible results. I appreciate you putting that together.