AT4073A & phantom power at DVinfo.net

Sassi Haham · January 6th, 2007, 10:12 AM

Hi,
My camera don't provide phantom power (canon xl1s) so I need to purchase a battery operated device to supply the phantom power.
The power requirements of the AT4073A are "phantom 11-52v DC", so which will be better "Denecke PS-1A" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
or "Denecke Dcode PS-T" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
or maybe this one "ART" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
Thanks
Sassi

Steve House · January 6th, 2007, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassi Haham

Hi,
My camera don't provide phantom power (canon xl1s) so I need to purchase a battery operated device to supply the phantom power.
The power requirements of the AT4073A are "phantom 11-52v DC", so which will be better "Denecke PS-1A" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
or "Denecke Dcode PS-T" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
or maybe this one "ART" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
Thanks
Sassi

The second one, the Denecke PS-T, is NOT a phantom power supply. It is for a n older type of microphone powering called "T-Power" or "A/B Power" and is absolutely not compatible with the AT4073a mic.

Either the Denecke PS-1A or the ART supply would work. I'd probably go with the Denecke unless money was tight. The AT mic may not be critical as to the voltage it needs but some others are and I think the PS-1A is a more rugged unit.

Sassi Haham · January 6th, 2007, 11:32 PM

Thanks Steve, I will take your advice.

Matthew Wilson · January 6th, 2007, 11:51 PM

Shalom Sassi,
I see you are into bird videography. The AT4073a is a great mic, but might I suggest that, if you can afford it, try and get a small mixer or mic pre-amp for it. If you get a Sound Devices MM1 or something like that, you will get the phantom power you need AND, get MUCH better mic pre-amps than the XL1s has. This is important if you are trying to get low volume sounds like wildlife. Anyway, thought that might be something to consider.

BTW, I'll be in Israel in February, where is Yaad?

Sassi Haham · January 7th, 2007, 03:20 AM

Hi Matthew,
Would that advice apply also to the XL2 ?
Can I guess that you use the same setup for bird videography ? if so, does it make a lot of difference ?
BTW I sent you an email.
Sassi

Steve House · January 7th, 2007, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassi Haham

Hi Matthew,
Would that advice apply also to the XL2 ?
Can I guess that you use the same setup for bird videography ? if so, does it make a lot of difference ?
BTW I sent you an email.
Sassi

The XL2 will supply phantom as I'm sure you know. But most camera's mic preamps are not the greatest in the world so by and large you'll get better sound and more control over what's going in by going from the mic to a field mixer or preamp and from there on to the camera, preferrably at line level.

Matthew Wilson · January 7th, 2007, 03:31 PM

Sassi,
In regards to mic pre-amps: the mic sends a very low level signal that needs to be amplified a lot in order to be recorded. This is generally done by what are called pre-amps, that is, they amplify the very low signal of the microphone before the amplified signal is mixed and/or amplified further by another amplifier which controls the line level, or volume to tape. The XL1s and the XL2 have mic pre-amps in them, but they are not very good as you have heard. The XL2's pre-amps are better than the Xl1s, but not great. There are better ones you can get.

So that's what I was referring to when I said get a mixer or pre-amp (A mixer generally just has more than one pre-amp so the sound from multiple mics can be mixed togerher).

For example, this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...y=12&Submit=Go is a very high quality single channel (can use only one mic at a time) pre-amp. It will give you the phantom power needed to power the AT4073a, and it will amplify the mic signal to a nice high level so that, if you then plug the output of this into the camera, the camera will not need to amplify the signal and the recorded sound will be much cleaner.
They make a slightly less expensive one called the MP-1, just a few small differences. It would work very nicely for what you are doing.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

The Sound Devices MM1 and MP-1 are very high quality units and therefore that's why they're expensive. But, it's not so bad if you are going to pay over $100 just for the phantom power anyway. There are less expensive units like this available. Beachtek makes some. I've never used one, so I cannot vouch for the quality, but if you search these boards there a plenty of folks who have.

I would recommend is the Sound Devices MM1 or MP-1. They are very clear and very low noise, so your mic sounds about as good as it can - plus, they have a built-in limiter that prevents the signal from getting too loud and causing horrible digital distortion. This can be really important if you have a large variation in the volume of sounds you are trying to capture. Here's a few that would probably work fine as well.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search
Has RCA connectors for output, so you would go into the camera's RCA audio inputs on the side.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search
This one connects through to the camera via a stereo mini-plug. I do not believe that it has a limiter, but its big brother, the DXA-8 does.

Shure makes this one (It is actually a MP-1 made by Sound Devices under Shure's label).
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
There is one for 200 on ebay right now. That would be a great deal.

If you just want the phantom power and rely on the camera's mic amplifier, then the Art unit should be fine. But if you can afford it, I think you would be much happier with one of these pre-amps. I don't shoot birds, but I have used an XL2 to get natural ambient sounds. I was very unhappy with the results until I got a Sound Devices mixer which is just like the MM1 only it can accept more than one mic and then mix their sounds together. Definitely one of the best investments I ever made.

One last thing, if you are interested in the Sound Devices (SD) units, know that SD requires dealers to sell at specific prices, so you would have a hard time finding them any cheaper than what B&H sells them for.

Hope that helps

Oleg Kaizerman · January 9th, 2007, 04:15 AM

egnore that one

Oleg Kaizerman · January 9th, 2007, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassi Haham

Hi,
My camera don't provide phantom power (canon xl1s) so I need to purchase a battery operated device to supply the phantom power.
The power requirements of the AT4073A are "phantom 11-52v DC", so which will be better "Denecke PS-1A" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
or "Denecke Dcode PS-T" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
or maybe this one "ART" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
Thanks
Sassi

for simple way powering 1 the mic only the deneckey ps 48 would be fine ,
the bad thing you will need to push the preamp very high on your camera get enough level on bird sounds and nature ambient what may bring the self noise of recording very high with cannon internal preamp which is not so grate in modest words .
for better recording you can add external preamp and avoid ths catastrophe:-)
sound devices mix pre is something i more consider then the others .
it has aditional input which would be nice if you extend your rig for 2 mics ( xy or ms or just another mic you will place in the distance to get another sound source) but also it does have unbalance -10 db outs go directly to xl1
the mm-1 is excellent peace but you will need attenuation cirquet go directly to the camera , the beachteck adaptors would be suitable for unbalance ins only what make them useless in the feature if you will decide replace the camera with newer model .
not to mention that mix pre give you aditional benefit when you works on normal documentary .
.
another way is to consider external good quality recorder and get much cleaner signal and drop its output to the camera for scratch track .
there are few nonlinears which could be good for that purpose - zoom , m-audo ,fostex , tascam and marantz ,these record much higher sample rate and have much better preamp stages with better s/n ratio and also have dedicated powered mic inputs .

my 2 shekels
if you need aditional info you can reach me at
kaizero1@gmail.com

Matthew Wilson · January 9th, 2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Kaizerman

but also it does have unbalance -10 db outs go directly to xl1
the mm-1 is excellent peace but you will need attenuation cirquet go directly to the camera , [/email]

Ah yes, good point Oleg. I forgot that the XL cameras don't take line level through the XLR's. But I think you can still bring a line level signal to the rca inputs on the side.

Oleg Kaizerman · January 9th, 2007, 12:51 PM

yes but you hsave to attunuate the mm-1 output for 15 db , or work like ass and not use the preamp in normal way :-)

Matthew Wilson · January 9th, 2007, 01:05 PM

Ah, the canons are -10 on the inputs?

Oleg Kaizerman · January 9th, 2007, 01:16 PM

the xl1-the line in is unbalance -10dbv or so

January 6th, 2007, 10:12 AM	#1
Sassi Haham Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Yaad, Galilee Posts: 117	AT4073A & phantom power Hi, My camera don't provide phantom power (canon xl1s) so I need to purchase a battery operated device to supply the phantom power. The power requirements of the AT4073A are "phantom 11-52v DC", so which will be better "Denecke PS-1A" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation or "Denecke Dcode PS-T" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation or maybe this one "ART" http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation Thanks Sassi

January 6th, 2007, 11:32 PM	#3
Sassi Haham Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Yaad, Galilee Posts: 117	Thanks Thanks Steve, I will take your advice.

January 6th, 2007, 11:51 PM	#4
Matthew Wilson Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 259	Shalom Sassi, I see you are into bird videography. The AT4073a is a great mic, but might I suggest that, if you can afford it, try and get a small mixer or mic pre-amp for it. If you get a Sound Devices MM1 or something like that, you will get the phantom power you need AND, get MUCH better mic pre-amps than the XL1s has. This is important if you are trying to get low volume sounds like wildlife. Anyway, thought that might be something to consider. BTW, I'll be in Israel in February, where is Yaad? __________________ MW

January 7th, 2007, 03:31 PM	#7
Matthew Wilson Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 259	Sassi, In regards to mic pre-amps: the mic sends a very low level signal that needs to be amplified a lot in order to be recorded. This is generally done by what are called pre-amps, that is, they amplify the very low signal of the microphone before the amplified signal is mixed and/or amplified further by another amplifier which controls the line level, or volume to tape. The XL1s and the XL2 have mic pre-amps in them, but they are not very good as you have heard. The XL2's pre-amps are better than the Xl1s, but not great. There are better ones you can get. So that's what I was referring to when I said get a mixer or pre-amp (A mixer generally just has more than one pre-amp so the sound from multiple mics can be mixed togerher). For example, this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...y=12&Submit=Go is a very high quality single channel (can use only one mic at a time) pre-amp. It will give you the phantom power needed to power the AT4073a, and it will amplify the mic signal to a nice high level so that, if you then plug the output of this into the camera, the camera will not need to amplify the signal and the recorded sound will be much cleaner. They make a slightly less expensive one called the MP-1, just a few small differences. It would work very nicely for what you are doing. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search The Sound Devices MM1 and MP-1 are very high quality units and therefore that's why they're expensive. But, it's not so bad if you are going to pay over $100 just for the phantom power anyway. There are less expensive units like this available. Beachtek makes some. I've never used one, so I cannot vouch for the quality, but if you search these boards there a plenty of folks who have. I would recommend is the Sound Devices MM1 or MP-1. They are very clear and very low noise, so your mic sounds about as good as it can - plus, they have a built-in limiter that prevents the signal from getting too loud and causing horrible digital distortion. This can be really important if you have a large variation in the volume of sounds you are trying to capture. Here's a few that would probably work fine as well. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search Has RCA connectors for output, so you would go into the camera's RCA audio inputs on the side. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search This one connects through to the camera via a stereo mini-plug. I do not believe that it has a limiter, but its big brother, the DXA-8 does. Shure makes this one (It is actually a MP-1 made by Sound Devices under Shure's label). http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation There is one for 200 on ebay right now. That would be a great deal. If you just want the phantom power and rely on the camera's mic amplifier, then the Art unit should be fine. But if you can afford it, I think you would be much happier with one of these pre-amps. I don't shoot birds, but I have used an XL2 to get natural ambient sounds. I was very unhappy with the results until I got a Sound Devices mixer which is just like the MM1 only it can accept more than one mic and then mix their sounds together. Definitely one of the best investments I ever made. One last thing, if you are interested in the Sound Devices (SD) units, know that SD requires dealers to sell at specific prices, so you would have a hard time finding them any cheaper than what B&H sells them for. Hope that helps __________________ MW

January 9th, 2007, 01:05 PM	#12
Matthew Wilson Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 259	Ah, the canons are -10 on the inputs? __________________ MW

January 7th, 2007, 03:20 AM	#5
Sassi Haham Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Yaad, Galilee Posts: 117	Hi Matthew, Would that advice apply also to the XL2 ? Can I guess that you use the same setup for bird videography ? if so, does it make a lot of difference ? BTW I sent you an email. Sassi

January 9th, 2007, 04:15 AM	#8
Oleg Kaizerman Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: israel Posts: 296	egnore that one

January 9th, 2007, 12:51 PM	#11
Oleg Kaizerman Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: israel Posts: 296	yes but you hsave to attunuate the mm-1 output for 15 db , or work like ass and not use the preamp in normal way :-)

January 9th, 2007, 01:16 PM	#13
Oleg Kaizerman Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: israel Posts: 296	the xl1-the line in is unbalance -10dbv or so