how to get good sound in shooting stage choirs? at DVinfo.net

Juan Dela Cruz · September 5th, 2006, 07:36 AM

I'll be shooting a stage choir (40members). How to get a clean sound with these gears only?

2x Sony Vx2100 (unbalanced audio connection)
2x SM58 dynamic mics
6 channel Mixer (balanced audio connection)
Iriver IFP-790 Mp3

if you suggest me to get a shotgun mic/lavalier it's not an option for now because of my budget. planning to hook from the PA system mixer but I'm afraid they got a crappy PA system there and make it more problematic.

thanks!

Steve House · September 5th, 2006, 08:12 AM

Neither a shotgun nor lavalier are likely to be a good choice in this circumstance so don't fret about not having them <grin>. What mixer do you have?

Harold Schreiber · September 5th, 2006, 12:25 PM

Hi Juan,

Even if you can plug into the House Sound Board, they must have the stage/ singers and musicians properly mic'd and properly mixed, regardless of how well or poorly their speaker system is set up.

On a recent Variety Show I did, they failed to properly mic the musicians (like not at all) and did a poor job on mixing what mic's they had on the singers. The sound board feed was clean, but only if you wanted to miss the music and hear the singers. They even had the speakers set too "Hot" in the high frequencies. So I had to use Cam mics.

Also, Steve is correct.

Harold

Juan Dela Cruz · September 5th, 2006, 11:13 PM

Can I get good sound using dynamic mic (SM58) 8feet from the choir?

Patomakarn Nitanontawat · September 5th, 2006, 11:37 PM

You could put the two SM58 above and infront of the choir in an XY configuration. Which means one mic is pointing to the left, one is pointing to the right for the same center spot. That would be your best bet in my opion. Goolgle around for some diagrams of "XY stereo miking technique." But you're in luck the SM58s are designed for vocals they have a "presence boost." So it should sound ok.

Mic position is everything.

Jarrod Whaley · September 6th, 2006, 08:24 AM

An SM58, or any dynamic handheld mic for that matter, will not pick up much of anything more than a foot away from it. They might work OK for extremely loud source materials, and even then, they're probably not the best choice for most applications. I definitely don't think they'd be the best choice for recording a choir. These mics are designed to be hand-held by a single vocalist at a very short distance.

Patomakarn Nitanontawat · September 6th, 2006, 12:40 PM

I'd have to disagree. SM58 with a quiet enough preamp can pick up quite a bit. But if the dude has the budget and time, I would recommend renting a Neumann stereo mic. Very beginner proof and sounds good.

Steve House · September 6th, 2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patomakarn Nitanontawat

I'd have to disagree. SM58 with a quiet enough preamp can pick up quite a bit. But if the dude has the budget and time, I would recommend renting a Neumann stereo mic. Very beginner proof and sounds good.

The SM58 is designed for solo vocals and backing vocals and Shure does not include in its recomended choir mics. Not to say it won't work, it's just not the optimal choice.

Shure's tech library has a number of white papers for free download on micing techniques for various applications. Well worth a read.

Jay Massengill · September 6th, 2006, 02:35 PM

It's true the SM58 wouldn't be a first choice for this work, but if that's all you've got for your own mics, then they can be pressed into service.
The key in this type of event is to not be totally dependent on the feed you're receiving from the PA mixer.
It will be important to establish a relationship with the house operators and if possible also place your own mics in a useful position. Since you have two cameras, I'd run your SM58's as a stereo pair into your mixer and record them on one camera. I'd take the feed from their board into your mixer at line level. Keep it isolated from your own mics and run that signal to your second camera. With a Mackie mixer like a 1202 or 1402 for example, you can have 5 independent output channels (Main 1/2, Alt3/4, Aux1 prefade) as well as the direct outs from the mono inputs. Even if your mixer is smaller and simpler, you'll almost always have the Main 1/2 and Aux1 prefade outputs to keep your stereo pair of mics isolated from the board feed but still have fader control over all the signals.
You could also record on your i-river as a backup.
It will be important to test ahead of time for ground loop hum when taking a board feed, as well as set your levels and monitor for bad mic placements.

Patomakarn Nitanontawat · September 7th, 2006, 01:57 PM

You're right about the hum though. But that's kinda difficult to prepare for. On the shooting day, a guy plugs a camera in here, a telephone charger here, almost impossible to control. But good luck recording the choir, if the music is beautiful, and the choirs angelic, not much you could do to ruin them. The idea is to "capture the magic of the moment." Reproducing the "magic" probably deserve another long discussion of its own. Use your ears, feel the sound.

Oh you didn't tell, is this a live event? with audience?

September 5th, 2006, 07:36 AM	#1
Juan Dela Cruz Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 83	how to get good sound in shooting stage choirs? I'll be shooting a stage choir (40members). How to get a clean sound with these gears only? 2x Sony Vx2100 (unbalanced audio connection) 2x SM58 dynamic mics 6 channel Mixer (balanced audio connection) Iriver IFP-790 Mp3 if you suggest me to get a shotgun mic/lavalier it's not an option for now because of my budget. planning to hook from the PA system mixer but I'm afraid they got a crappy PA system there and make it more problematic. thanks!

September 5th, 2006, 08:12 AM	#2
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	Neither a shotgun nor lavalier are likely to be a good choice in this circumstance so don't fret about not having them <grin>. What mixer do you have? __________________ Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

September 5th, 2006, 11:37 PM	#5
Patomakarn Nitanontawat Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 97	hmmm You could put the two SM58 above and infront of the choir in an XY configuration. Which means one mic is pointing to the left, one is pointing to the right for the same center spot. That would be your best bet in my opion. Goolgle around for some diagrams of "XY stereo miking technique." But you're in luck the SM58s are designed for vocals they have a "presence boost." So it should sound ok. Mic position is everything.

September 6th, 2006, 08:24 AM	#6
Jarrod Whaley Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: chattanooga, tn Posts: 721	An SM58, or any dynamic handheld mic for that matter, will not pick up much of anything more than a foot away from it. They might work OK for extremely loud source materials, and even then, they're probably not the best choice for most applications. I definitely don't think they'd be the best choice for recording a choir. These mics are designed to be hand-held by a single vocalist at a very short distance. __________________ -->jarrod whaley. www.oakstreetfilms.com Last edited by Jarrod Whaley; September 6th, 2006 at 09:38 AM.

September 7th, 2006, 01:57 PM	#10
Patomakarn Nitanontawat Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 97	hum You're right about the hum though. But that's kinda difficult to prepare for. On the shooting day, a guy plugs a camera in here, a telephone charger here, almost impossible to control. But good luck recording the choir, if the music is beautiful, and the choirs angelic, not much you could do to ruin them. The idea is to "capture the magic of the moment." Reproducing the "magic" probably deserve another long discussion of its own. Use your ears, feel the sound. Oh you didn't tell, is this a live event? with audience?

September 5th, 2006, 12:25 PM	#3
Harold Schreiber Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Olathe, Kansas Posts: 309	Hi Juan, Even if you can plug into the House Sound Board, they must have the stage/ singers and musicians properly mic'd and properly mixed, regardless of how well or poorly their speaker system is set up. On a recent Variety Show I did, they failed to properly mic the musicians (like not at all) and did a poor job on mixing what mic's they had on the singers. The sound board feed was clean, but only if you wanted to miss the music and hear the singers. They even had the speakers set too "Hot" in the high frequencies. So I had to use Cam mics. Also, Steve is correct. Harold

September 5th, 2006, 11:13 PM	#4
Juan Dela Cruz Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 83	Can I get good sound using dynamic mic (SM58) 8feet from the choir?

September 6th, 2006, 12:40 PM	#7
Patomakarn Nitanontawat Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 97	I'd have to disagree. SM58 with a quiet enough preamp can pick up quite a bit. But if the dude has the budget and time, I would recommend renting a Neumann stereo mic. Very beginner proof and sounds good.

September 6th, 2006, 02:35 PM	#9
Jay Massengill Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Burlington Posts: 1,976	It's true the SM58 wouldn't be a first choice for this work, but if that's all you've got for your own mics, then they can be pressed into service. The key in this type of event is to not be totally dependent on the feed you're receiving from the PA mixer. It will be important to establish a relationship with the house operators and if possible also place your own mics in a useful position. Since you have two cameras, I'd run your SM58's as a stereo pair into your mixer and record them on one camera. I'd take the feed from their board into your mixer at line level. Keep it isolated from your own mics and run that signal to your second camera. With a Mackie mixer like a 1202 or 1402 for example, you can have 5 independent output channels (Main 1/2, Alt3/4, Aux1 prefade) as well as the direct outs from the mono inputs. Even if your mixer is smaller and simpler, you'll almost always have the Main 1/2 and Aux1 prefade outputs to keep your stereo pair of mics isolated from the board feed but still have fader control over all the signals. You could also record on your i-river as a backup. It will be important to test ahead of time for ground loop hum when taking a board feed, as well as set your levels and monitor for bad mic placements.