Digital audio recorders?

[Stu Holmes]

Originally Posted by Andreas Griesmayr

'only' 20 bucks??...my external battery pack for mt iRiver ( holding 4 AAs ) cost me abt. 50 Cents...( can't tell you any source though, was in a DIY shop in Japan, and I had to solder the plug myself, another 50 Cents there. But cheap and good solutions should be available )

The Sony RH1 is the latest model, display the side of the body only with separate channel level indicators. Earlier models, e.g the RH10, or DH710 and DH910 ( not sure abt. their exact model name ) might do same quality recordings and come with an external battery pack included.

thanks for the info on Hi-MD machines. I think (well in USA anyway) the "DH910" is/was called the "RH-910" (might be different naming for different markets, or maybe just your typo - not sure.)

[Jeff Phelps]

Originally Posted by Stu Holmes

Hi Jeff - is the new sony one you're referring to the MZ-R1 ?
i.e. this one :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

Yeah that's it. The new software also has fewer restrictions too. I should have pointed that out before. Version 3.4 of SonicStage is by far better than earlier versions.

They are getting very close to what a recorder should be but this is probably as good as it will ever get from Sony. There isn't much of a software hassle at this point but there is still a little. MD is a great technology IMO. It's too bad it will be eventually killed off by the stupidity of Sony and their DRM stuff. It should have been what the iPod became but Sony had their head stuck up their...

[Bill Pryor]

I got the Microtrack delivered yesterday, checked it out thoroughly this morning in the audio booth, and it's great.

As I posted earlier, I had bought the Marantz PMD660, but found it way too noisy for my purposes. Then I sort of sold myself on getting the Tascam HD-P2, but things got delayed and I had time to think it through, and decided that for the upcoming project, my first instinct was correct--I needed a small, handheld type unit.

Comparing the clip from the Microtrack to the same thing from the 660, there is a really big difference. You hear too much noise on the 660, almost nothing on the Microtrack. While the Microtrack is not totally silent and sound studio perfect, it is well within any tolerance for shooting interviews. I haven't compared it to the DSR500, but it's obvious that its quality will be at least as good, which is good enough for my project.

I'm using it with an old Sennheiser wired lav that uses the K3U power supply. Until recently I couldn't get batteries because the old mercury oxide batteries are illegal in the U.S. Now there are silver batteries available. The Microtrack only puts out 30v for phantom power, so if you don't have a powered mic, that might be a problem.

I've been comparing the Microtrack to a "prosumer" camera versus a professonal one: You have to go into the menu for lots of things. However, once it's set up, that's not a problem. It's quick and easy to set up. Like a "prosumer" camera, it's a little more user unfriendly than a professional one, but once you learn its eccentricities, you can make it work fine.

Although I would prefer XLR inputs, the 1/4" seem to work well with an adapter cable. I put in a 2-gig CF card, and when I stop recording, it takes about 4 seconds to write the file. Then about 2 more seconds to start recording again. That's about as fast as doing the same thing with a video camera, and you don't need rundown.

I was surprised that it's as small as it is. The photos looked bigger. It's lightweight but doesn't feel cheap. It feels well-built, but I wouldn't want to drop it on a concrete floor. The buttons are nice and require some pressure. It's obvious they've put some thought into that, and you won't be turning on or off something by accident. To delete a file, you press the delete button and get a message asking if you really mean it, so you press it again. No accidental delete there. Same with powering down--takes a couple of button presses.

According to the manual, I should be able to monitor audio levels before recording, but I haven't been able to make that work yet. Either I'm doing something wrong or it's one of those firmware updates they promise. I did the Aug. 1 update, and that was quick and easy.

Overall, I'm pleased. It will do the job I bought it for. I would prefer the Marantz for ease of use and XLR input, but it was too noisy. So I think the Microtrack is a pretty good deal. However, if anybody is in need of a small CF recorder and can wait till the end of the year, the Fostex will be out and also the Zoom. The Fostex looks like the Marantz but hopefully will have useable mic level inputs. There aren't any useful specs published on the Zoom yet.

[Joe Barker]

Picked up a Sony H-MD MZ NH700 mini disc for back up sound.I just noticed that on the microphone input plug it reads Mic(plug in power).I intend using the recorder with an Electro Voice RE50/B omni derectional dynamic,non powered mic.Question for all you guys who use the mini disc recorders.
Is there any kind of issue if I plug the above type of mic in the Mic(plug in power)socket?
The last thing I want is to electricaly fry my RE50 or my AT897 shotgun.

[Andreas Griesmayr]

As far as I know socalled 'unpowered' mics like your's actually NEED the socalled plug-in powered provided by the recorder in order to function. In case I am wrong - I am no specialist so you may wait for somebody to second me - I also believe that the plug in power supplied are just 2 or 3 Volts ( I don't know the exact figure, you will find at the sites linked below ) and could not harm your mics.

see: http://forums.minidisc.org/ and http://www.minidisc.org/part_Hi-MD_Sony.html

BTW, anybody having mp3 players like an ipod could try this:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cg...ALK&type=store
gadget to turn it into an recorder.

[Sharyn Ferrick]

Your EV MIC is dynamic and does not require any phantom power. Your AT MIC either uses a battery or phantom power.
The Mini disk does NOT put out phantom power, it is a low voltage 3 volts usually mic power that is totally different. You want to make sure that you get an adaptor that has a blocking capacitor to remove this voltage from your mic for best performance. http://www.rcrowley.com/CamAdapt.htm gives you some ideas.

Sharyn

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Andreas Griesmayr

As far as I know socalled 'unpowered' mics like your's actually NEED the socalled plug-in powered provided by the recorder in order to function. In case I am wrong - I am no specialist so you may wait for somebody to second me - I also believe that the plug in power supplied are just 2 or 3 Volts ( I don't know the exact figure, you will find at the sites linked below ) and could not harm your mics.
...

Sorry to correct you, but the "plug-on power" in consumer MD recorders and the like (camcorders too, for that matter) is a mic bias power for cheap consumer electret mics such as are supplied with such gear and is NOT needed by dynamic mics or battery powered mics such as the AT897, nor is it adequate for mics that do require external phantom power. While it's not likely to damage the mic, it can, in fact, contribute to poor performance and should be blocked. Since both the EV-RE50 and the AT897 use balanced XLR connections and the MD recorders mic input is unbalanced, one will need an adapter and the best approach is to insure that the one you use includes a DC blocking capacitor. The problem is figuring out just how the MD recorder mic input is wired. If it takes a TRS mini plug the bias voltage is between the ring and sleeve and a properly wired XLR to mini adapter shorts it out to ground and it ceases to be an issue. But if the recorder takes a mono TS plug for the exernal mic, the voltage is between the tip and the sleeve and you need the capacitor in your adapter to block it. Adapters such as those from Beachtek include the capacitor AFAIK, but sometimes they get left out in a simple XLR to minplug adapter cable. If you're making up your own adapter cable simply wiring a small 10uF capaciter in series with the signal hot lead between pin 2 of the XLR and the tip of the miniplug should do the trick.

[Andreas Griesmayr]

Originally Posted by Steve House

Sorry to correct you, ...

no need to be sorry, in the contrary, thank you for correcting.
It is me who should be sorry for posting without knowing. ( For my excuse I had mentioned that my knowledge was limited. )

How did I arrive at this wrong opinion?:
I have a 9 Volt powered preamp to record audio to my iRiver H120 which has a switch to turn on/off plug in power. When I use my self powered AT822 I turn the plug in power off as it is warned aganst using power on the AT822. When I use my non powered Giant Squid Omnis the plug in power must be turned on, if left to off no sound is produced.

I guess that there are many different kinds of Mics and I do not understand their differences and what they require. Dynamic Mics must have a much higher output, yes? I never learned anything about them, they are above my leage.
If there is anything I should know to shed some light on my ignorance or offer a link I'd be very grateful.

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Andreas Griesmayr

...

How did I arrive at this wrong opinion?:
I have a 9 Volt powered preamp to record audio to my iRiver H120 which has a switch to turn on/off plug in power. When I use my self powered AT822 I turn the plug in power off as it is warned aganst using power on the AT822. When I use my non powered Giant Squid Omnis the plug in power must be turned on, if left to off no sound is produced.

I guess that there are many different kinds of Mics and I do not understand their differences and what they require. Dynamic Mics must have a much higher output, yes? I never learned anything about them, they are above my leage.
...

Dynamic mics are like a miniature loudspeaker in reverse, a coil mounted on a diaphram moving in a magnetic field generates the signal. They have a much LOWER output than a typical condenser mic - often 10 to 20 or even more dB lower - and don't require any external power at all as there are no active electonic components inside the mic itself.

To compare the output levels, I have a Rode NT1a studio condensor mic that has a rated output sensitivity of -32dB (25mV). In comparison, a typical broadcast studio dynamic mic like the EV RE27 puts out -51dB (3.1mV) while its older brother, the EV RE20, is rated at only -57dB (1.5mV).

Condensor mics have a capsule consisting of two electically charged plates close together. Some have a fixed charge created chemically (called electret, permanently charged, or backplate charged mics) and others require an external high voltage ("true condensor" mics). In either case, inside the mic the capsule is connected to an preamp which itself also needs a source of power to operate. All condensor mics require that power source - the differences are in where they get it. That power can come from phantom power (the same phantom power also generates the charging voltage in a true condensor mic), an internal battery, or the so-called bias power. And that's why your Giant Squids need the power on for you to hear anything - their internal preamp needs it - while with the AT822 the internal battery in the mic is supplying it. But I'm confused - are you saying the power in the I-River must be switched on for the Squids to work even when you're using the 9volt powered preamp? I would have thought that would take over and supply everything the mic needs.

[Andreas Griesmayr]

thank's a lot for your explanation Steve, you are very kind.

Originally Posted by Steve

I would have thought that 9 the external preamp )would take over and supply everything the mic needs.

It is on the external preamp where I can switch line-in-power on or off, and where it must be turned on for the GSmics to work.

The iRiver supplies mic-in-power and therefore both mics work fine when plugged directly into it. I don't even know if it can be turned off on the iRiver but should find out as it could be better turned off when plugging the AT822 directly into it.

BTW I always thought that those Giant Squid Omnis lavs are mic capsules in a casing with cable connection, not more than that. I never thought that there was some circuit - a preamp, called fet?, inside those tiny mics.

[Sean McHenry]

What model number of iRiver is still available that can record well, on the open market? Also, what models of MiniDisc have XLR inputs?

I am looking for something inexpensive, $100 range to do some simple voice recording for some very simple short film projects. Doesn't have to be perfect but I plan on shooting Super 8 and laying in the audio (non Xtal sync) in the Avid timeline. If it can do 48KHz, super.

I want to try to aviod carrying my full sized DAT deck out in the field if I don't have to.

Thanks folks,

Sean

[Michael Liebergot]

Originally Posted by Sean McHenry

What model number of iRiver is still available that can record well, on the open market? Also, what models of MiniDisc have XLR inputs?

I am looking for something inexpensive, $100 range to do some simple voice recording for some very simple short film projects. Doesn't have to be perfect but I plan on shooting Super 8 and laying in the audio (non Xtal sync) in the Avid timeline. If it can do 48KHz, super.

I want to try to aviod carrying my full sized DAT deck out in the field if I don't have to.

Thanks folks,

Sean

The IRivers that you would be searching for would be the IFP 790 or 890 series recorders. And have been discontinued and replaced with a model that doesn't allow mic input recording, but only line in recording. they are available still online on ebay and such, but are becoming harder to find.

Mini disk recorders don't use XLR inputs, only 1/8 mini inputs. And there is no XLR type recorder out there that will be in your $100 range.
The closest to that would be the not yet released Samson Zoom H4 Handy recorder (for $299), which looks pretty sweet BTW (I have one on pre order and already own a Microrack and R-09).

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Andreas Griesmayr

...

BTW I always thought that those Giant Squid Omnis lavs are mic capsules in a casing with cable connection, not more than that. I never thought that there was some circuit - a preamp, called fet?, inside those tiny mics.

Yep, there one in there somewhere. Circuits with Field Effect Transistors (FETs) can be pretty tiny these days and the one's in a mic like the Squid aren't particularly complicated. Condensor mic capsules are extremely high impedence devices and the main function of the preamp is to bring the impedence down to where it can drive an input circuit.

[Andreas Griesmayr]

Originally Posted by Michael Liebergot

The IRivers that you would be searching for would be the IFP 790 or 890 series recorders. And have been discontinued and replaced with a model that doesn't allow mic input recording, but only line in recording. they are available still online on ebay and such, but are becoming harder to find.

The iFP-799 and 899 are the 1GB, the 895 and 795 the 512 MB models. They record in mp3 only, have variable bitrate, are chosen for their small size.

Better iRiver recorders are the bigger harddisc players/recorders iHP120/140 and iHP320/340, the 20 or 40 in their name meaning a 20 or 40 GB harddisc. They record in WAV and specially with "rockbox' installed, an open source firmware which is upgraded daily, make very useable recorders with e.g. live adjustable levels and meters.
The iHP1xx series has optical in, the iHP3xx series has colour display and plays movies.

All of the above mentioned are discontinued models but can be found at online auctions.

[Joe Barker]

A huge thanks to everyone for their help and feedback regarding my original post about MD recorders. My question about microphones and using the (powered) plug in socket for EV RE50 and AT897 has had an incredable amount of response. This Dv info site ceases to amaze; it’s a true font of knowledge.