Digital audio recorders?

Bill Pryor · August 18th, 2006, 08:54 AM

Sharyn, the Tascam has a standard BNC connector for time code sync. It's just like syncing up 2 cameas, genlock out to in, having set both to real time. As long as you don't power down, sync should hold. For people using cameas without genlock, obviously that wouldn't work without one of those Horita gadgets.

A. J. deLange · August 18th, 2006, 02:20 PM

Just to clarify a bit: the BNC is a word clock or genlock input. The time code input is an XLR. If the BNC is given word clock the samples are taken synchronously with that clock. If given video or blackburst the sample clocks are generated from and synchronous with the video. This is ongoing i.e. the sample clock follows the reference source. The timecode, on the other hand, is sampled at the beginning of the recording and it is the time of the first sample that is recorded in the header. The ability to reconstruct time code from this stamp depends on a constant number of samples per frame. With video sync coming into the machine this is realized.

Sharyn Ferrick · August 18th, 2006, 02:23 PM

Thanks for all the comments. For the user that does not have access to a time code slate, or a box that converts land tc to smpte or an external genloc/tc adaptor, here is what can work.

XL1 is the camera capturing the video, and Sony gv d900 for an example is the unit capturing the audio. (Could be any camcorder in vcr mode with line in) and a mic preamp in my example Beachtek 10, but could be any mixer which is battery powered and has line out.

you take the video out from the xl1, using the remote to turn on data dispaly so that the timecode is displayed on the video out, you feed this into the gv d900, now you have a video feed from the main camera that has time code dispalyed being recorded, you then have the audio input to the gv d900 being recorded.

When you import the audio into the nle via firewire, you then have a video guide track with the timecode being shown in its video from the primary video source.

It is not a perfect solution, but for some people who do not have access to the more elegant time code componants, it offers an alternative.

SHARYN

David Tamés · August 18th, 2006, 06:08 PM

Steve writes of the MicroTrack,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve House

Nice recorder with some problems - my biggest caveats are limited battery life and the batts can't be changed in the field - internal fixed batt only in other words. And the mic phantom power is only 30 volts, eliminating your abilty to use some of the better condenser mics that require the full 48v power.

Yes, this little critter has some problems, but as an owner of one who uses it quite often for audio interviews, double system sound with video, and as a backup recorder attached to my Sound Devices 302 mixer, I'd say it's a pretty versatile and useful tool. And in a pinch the stereo T-Mic that comes with it is surprizingly good.

The limitations of the built-in battery can be overcome: you can feed it external power from a battery via the USB port. But this is not a portable solution.

Yes, the ultimate MicroTrack would use AA batteries or a field replacable Lithium Ion battery. Why not design the recorder to use a widely available Sony Lithium Ion battery (Sound Devices did this with their (much more expensive) digital recorders)?

No limiter is a problem (though I hear the chip they use has a limiter function, so mabe a future firmware upgrade will make use of it? one can only home).

But all in all I use it once or twice a week and I'm very pleased, dollar for dollar. Compact Flash for media rocks, and drag and drop of audio files to the Mac is very sleek indeed.

One thumbs up, one thumbs neutral on the Microtrack. Fix battery, limiter, and phantom power issue, and it would be two thumbs up!

Bill Pryor · August 18th, 2006, 07:12 PM

The phantom power issue was the deal-killer for me.

Martin Pauly · August 19th, 2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Tames

The limitations of the built-in battery can be overcome: you can feed it external power from a battery via the USB port. But this is not a portable solution.

If you are talking about a laptop computer, then I agree. But there are a number of USB battery packs out there that I would certainly call portable.

I bought a MicroTrack because my camera (Sony HC3) has no audio input whatsoever. I love the fact that I can record really long sessions - 2 hours nonstop with a 2GB flash card, at 48kHz and 24bits, and potentially more (if I needed more) with more memory. So I am essentially running a dual system for most of my recording, with the extra work to synch audio and video, but the audio quality is very good!

Depending on what mics you need to connect, the lower voltage for phantom power can be an actual problem. I chose my mics specifically for the MicroTrack, though. An alternative could be to add a field pre-amp for the microphones, which I am considering because of the noise added by the MicroTrack when I turn it into the highest gain (the "27dB TRS Boost") - my only real complaint so far about the recorder.

- Martin

Bill Pryor · August 19th, 2006, 01:56 PM

There is a USB device sold on Comprehensive (listed along with the Microtrack on their site) that holds AA batteries and will power the recorder. It's only about 20 bucks. Problem is, you start adding these extra things, you sort of lose the reason for having a small, compact unit.

David Tamés · August 21st, 2006, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Pauly

[...] Depending on what mics you need to connect, the lower voltage for phantom power can be an actual problem [...]

Since I usually use it in one of the following three configurations, it's never been a problem for me: (1) Attached to my Sound Devices 302 Mixer, running Mini-XLR Line out from the mixer into the 1/8" input on the MicroTrack, this makes for an excellent back-up recorder when feeding a camera (since it does not tie up the XLR outs on the mixer) or an excellent double-system solution; (2) Dynamic RE-50 handheld Mic into the 1/4" TRS input for "reporter style" interviews, and (3) using the (amazing for what it is) T-Microphone (included with the MicroTrack) for stereo ambience recording. It all depends on your application. It works for me, it's not ideal, the lack of built-in limiter is annoying to no end, and that, plus not having a user-replaceable battery, is certainly a deal-killer for many. I hope M-Audio designers are reading and taking notes on this board.

Joe Barker · August 22nd, 2006, 07:36 PM

Compatability?
Would a hand held interveiw mic such as an Electro Voice Dynamic RE-50 work in combination with a Sony MZ-100 or similar Hi-MD mini disc recorder. Has anyone used such a set up ?

Bill Pryor · August 26th, 2006, 02:28 PM

Here's some very good info on the Microtrack:

http://www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm

As I posted earlier, I tried the Marantz660 and found it too noisy. I returned it to B&H, and the customer service guy took my order for the Tascam HD-P2. I won't go into detail but there was a screwup in info I got. I had bought the 660 with their new credit plan that allows you to pay off in 90 days. When I didn't get any confirmation of the Tascam order in several days I called back, and a different customer service guy said they couldn't credit that account for me and apply it to a new order, so I would have to wait for the credit for several days...etc....it got to be a long story so I won't go into anymore boring detail. Let's just say it gave me time to think about things and I'm not sure I want to spend $1K on the Tascam at this time for what I want to do.

The thing is, I really need a little hand held recorder for the project. I don't need the Tascam. The deal killer for me on this Microtrack was the low voltage phantom power because I want to use one of my old Sennheiser K3U wired lavs. They still sound better than even our Countrymans. But they use mercury oxide batteries--now banned in the U.S. So I've been using phantom power.

However, thanks to B&H's screwing around, I've had time to check around and just discovered yesterday that finally they are selling silver oxide replacement batteries for the old ones, and they're readily available.

So, phantom power is now a non-issue for me.

Which means I think I'll buy that Microtrack. The internal battery isn't wonderful, but it will be way more than adequate for any recording times I might do with the deck. I'd rather have XLRs, but I can live with the 1/4" inputs.

All the reading I've done about these little handheld units indicate that they're the same thing to the audio world that "prosumer" cameras are to the video world. They have limitations but you can use them quite effectively for many things.

There are some fully pro handhelds out there. This one, for instance:
http://www.maycom.nl/products.html
Scroll down to the handheld picture. Unfortunately I can't find any mention of a U.S. distributor, though it is probably available here through the UK web page.

When the Zaxcom comes out it may be in the same category.

Bruce S. Yarock · August 26th, 2006, 07:26 PM

Bill,
Get teh Edirol r-09. I'm using one for all types of things and it's great.
Bruce S. Yarock
www.yarock.com

Andreas Griesmayr · August 27th, 2006, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce S. Yarock

Bill,
Get teh Edirol r-09. I'm using one for all types of things and it's great.
Bruce S. Yarock
www.yarock.com

I second that
The R-09 is the latest recorder an is overall better than any other in it's prize range.

I personally use an iriver which fits me well with it's 20 GB storage as I may at times record for many hours before being able to upload to a PC, and because I needed an mp3 player anyway. For high quality music recordings I use an external preamp though.

With the R-09 no need for an ext. preamp, it's internal mics are good enough for most uses and hence even no need to set up external mics which makes the R-09 the fastest, most easy to use option there is.

Bill Pryor · August 27th, 2006, 10:51 AM

What I'm doing is recording interviews using a wired Sennheiser lav. I'm trying to do it in a way that gets audio as good as normal shooting to video would be. The Edirol looks good but only has mini inputs and that bothers me a little. Although that's not as big a deal as it would be when shooting video trying to use one. In most cases the deck will be laying on a table.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · August 27th, 2006, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Gray

How did M-Audio's microtrack 24/96 ever pan out? The ~$350 flash recorder? Might make for a nice little backup recorder if it is half decent.

Tim

Other than not being able to change out batteries, I'm pretty happy with it now that they've had a couple firmware updates. Using it very regularly now, due to size. It also supplies only 30 volts for phantom, which is a problem for a very limited number of microphones.

You might wanna check into this one.

On the other side, while it's a tad big, I'm very happy with my Edirol R4 as well.

Bill Pryor · August 27th, 2006, 11:03 AM

Douglas, have you used it with an external mic, via mic input, for voice recording?

August 22nd, 2006, 07:36 PM	#54
Joe Barker Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Perth WA Australia Posts: 124	Compatablity? Compatability? Would a hand held interveiw mic such as an Electro Voice Dynamic RE-50 work in combination with a Sony MZ-100 or similar Hi-MD mini disc recorder. Has anyone used such a set up ?

August 18th, 2006, 08:54 AM	#46
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Sharyn, the Tascam has a standard BNC connector for time code sync. It's just like syncing up 2 cameas, genlock out to in, having set both to real time. As long as you don't power down, sync should hold. For people using cameas without genlock, obviously that wouldn't work without one of those Horita gadgets.

August 18th, 2006, 02:20 PM	#47
A. J. deLange Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: McLean, VA United States Posts: 749	Just to clarify a bit: the BNC is a word clock or genlock input. The time code input is an XLR. If the BNC is given word clock the samples are taken synchronously with that clock. If given video or blackburst the sample clocks are generated from and synchronous with the video. This is ongoing i.e. the sample clock follows the reference source. The timecode, on the other hand, is sampled at the beginning of the recording and it is the time of the first sample that is recorded in the header. The ability to reconstruct time code from this stamp depends on a constant number of samples per frame. With video sync coming into the machine this is realized.

August 18th, 2006, 02:23 PM	#48
Sharyn Ferrick Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sitka Alaska Posts: 128	Thanks for all the comments. For the user that does not have access to a time code slate, or a box that converts land tc to smpte or an external genloc/tc adaptor, here is what can work. XL1 is the camera capturing the video, and Sony gv d900 for an example is the unit capturing the audio. (Could be any camcorder in vcr mode with line in) and a mic preamp in my example Beachtek 10, but could be any mixer which is battery powered and has line out. you take the video out from the xl1, using the remote to turn on data dispaly so that the timecode is displayed on the video out, you feed this into the gv d900, now you have a video feed from the main camera that has time code dispalyed being recorded, you then have the audio input to the gv d900 being recorded. When you import the audio into the nle via firewire, you then have a video guide track with the timecode being shown in its video from the primary video source. It is not a perfect solution, but for some people who do not have access to the more elegant time code componants, it offers an alternative. SHARYN

August 18th, 2006, 07:12 PM	#50
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	The phantom power issue was the deal-killer for me.

August 19th, 2006, 01:56 PM	#52
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	There is a USB device sold on Comprehensive (listed along with the Microtrack on their site) that holds AA batteries and will power the recorder. It's only about 20 bucks. Problem is, you start adding these extra things, you sort of lose the reason for having a small, compact unit.

August 26th, 2006, 02:28 PM	#55
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Here's some very good info on the Microtrack: http://www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm As I posted earlier, I tried the Marantz660 and found it too noisy. I returned it to B&H, and the customer service guy took my order for the Tascam HD-P2. I won't go into detail but there was a screwup in info I got. I had bought the 660 with their new credit plan that allows you to pay off in 90 days. When I didn't get any confirmation of the Tascam order in several days I called back, and a different customer service guy said they couldn't credit that account for me and apply it to a new order, so I would have to wait for the credit for several days...etc....it got to be a long story so I won't go into anymore boring detail. Let's just say it gave me time to think about things and I'm not sure I want to spend $1K on the Tascam at this time for what I want to do. The thing is, I really need a little hand held recorder for the project. I don't need the Tascam. The deal killer for me on this Microtrack was the low voltage phantom power because I want to use one of my old Sennheiser K3U wired lavs. They still sound better than even our Countrymans. But they use mercury oxide batteries--now banned in the U.S. So I've been using phantom power. However, thanks to B&H's screwing around, I've had time to check around and just discovered yesterday that finally they are selling silver oxide replacement batteries for the old ones, and they're readily available. So, phantom power is now a non-issue for me. Which means I think I'll buy that Microtrack. The internal battery isn't wonderful, but it will be way more than adequate for any recording times I might do with the deck. I'd rather have XLRs, but I can live with the 1/4" inputs. All the reading I've done about these little handheld units indicate that they're the same thing to the audio world that "prosumer" cameras are to the video world. They have limitations but you can use them quite effectively for many things. There are some fully pro handhelds out there. This one, for instance: http://www.maycom.nl/products.html Scroll down to the handheld picture. Unfortunately I can't find any mention of a U.S. distributor, though it is probably available here through the UK web page. When the Zaxcom comes out it may be in the same category.

August 26th, 2006, 07:26 PM	#56
Bruce S. Yarock Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pembroke Pines, Fl. Posts: 1,842	Bill, Get teh Edirol r-09. I'm using one for all types of things and it's great. Bruce S. Yarock www.yarock.com

August 27th, 2006, 10:51 AM	#58
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	What I'm doing is recording interviews using a wired Sennheiser lav. I'm trying to do it in a way that gets audio as good as normal shooting to video would be. The Edirol looks good but only has mini inputs and that bothers me a little. Although that's not as big a deal as it would be when shooting video trying to use one. In most cases the deck will be laying on a table.

August 27th, 2006, 11:03 AM	#60
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Douglas, have you used it with an external mic, via mic input, for voice recording?