sennheiser mkh 416 vs mkh 60 and mkh 70?

[Victor Burdiladze]

Does enybody know the difference between Sennheiser's mkh-416, mkh-60 and mkh-70?
I tried mkh-416 and love the quality it deliveres. However, some rental facilities in NY offer only mkh 60 and 70 models and soon I have to rent one for upcoming film project.
Please give me some feedback if you have tried 60 and 70 for field recording and how are they compared to 416...
Thanks,
Vic

[Daniel Epstein]

Victor,
The difference between the Sennheiser Models you described are relatively easy to describe.

MKH 416 is a short shotgun good tight pattern, Fairly dramatic fall off off axis. Can be Phantom or 12 Volt AB Power. Very reliable for news and documentary. Not so good for groups of people unless they talk one at a time

MKH 60 is still a shotgun but closer to a Schoeps Hypercardioid pattern. Broader than the the 416 but not as good for longer throws. Better for group coverage becasue the fall off is smoother. Not quite as warm but more forgiving. Not quite as good as a Schoeps but more durable. Phantom Power only I believe

MKH 70 Longer version of the MKH60 for a longer throw. Similar to 816 commpared to 416. Phantom Power only I believe

Originally Sennheiser was going to phase out the 416 with the MKH60 but customer demand won out so they sell both.

[Victor Burdiladze]

Thanks Daniel.
In my short, I'll have very few scenes and in each one no more than two actors talking(one at a time).
I was thinking to place a mic in between them and slightly above, just to keep things easy. I think, it's better solution than to use two lavaliers on each actor and have another mic for location sound only; I'll try to keep things uncomplicated...
I'll appreciate if anybody has any suggestions?

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Victor Burdiladze

Thanks Daniel.
In my short, I'll have very few scenes and in each one no more than two actors talking(one at a time).
I was thinking to place a mic in between them and slightly above, just to keep things easy. I think, it's better solution than to use two lavaliers on each actor and have another mic for location sound only; I'll try to keep things uncomplicated...
I'll appreciate if anybody has any suggestions?

If you're going to use 1 shotgun to record 2 speakers at once, you'll need to have a boom operator to aim it back and forth. The directivity of a shotgun is narrow enough that with a stationary mic you only have two choices - either one person is on mic and the other is off; or both of them are off-mic. Neither option makes for a good dialog recording. Of course, if you're shooting film-style you'll shoot the scene at least three times, recording each actor's dialog with an over-the-shoulder POV closeup shot from the other actor's position so you only have to worry about getting a good take of the one on-camera actor's dialog for most of the scene.

[Chris Hocking]

On the topic of the Sennheiser MKH range, I was just wondering if the 416/60/70 are appropriate for both outdoors and INDOORS shoots?

From what I've been reading over the past month or so, shotguns are simply inappropriate for indoor use. I'm just wondering if this advice is not appropriate for the more highend range of microphones, like the Sennheiser MKH range.

I know Daniel said that the 60 has a "Schoeps Hypercardioid pattern", but having never used a Schoeps microphone before, I don't exactly know what that's refering to.

And finally, if the MKH range are suitable for MOST locations, does that mean you can get away with only purchasing one highend microphone?

Please excuse my ignorance...

[Victor Burdiladze]

again, thanks everybody for responding...
Steve, yes I will be filming over the sholder or other POV shots but I"m thinking to use a Sennheiser shotgun for master shots as well... what would be your suggestion regarding that.
Vic
P.S. Also, what do you guys thinking about AKG's SE 300b with couple different capsules?

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Chris Hocking

...
From what I've been reading over the past month or so, shotguns are simply inappropriate for indoor use. I'm just wondering if this advice is not appropriate for the more highend range of microphones, like the Sennheiser MKH range.

I know Daniel said that the 60 has a "Schoeps Hypercardioid pattern", but having never used a Schoeps microphone before, I don't exactly know what that's refering to.

...

The Schoeps CMC641 hypercardioid is arguably the film industry's standard boom mic for dialog and its sound and pattern has become sort of a comparison reference standard. A typical hyper has a moderately narrow front lobe and a very small, narrow, back lobe at 180 degress. A shotgun typically has a bit narrower and slightly longer front lobe (a bit more "reach") but it has 2 or 4 rather pronounced side lobes at about +/- 120 degrees. The shape of a hyper's pattern does not change much at various frequencies while a shotgun's directivity can be very frequency dependent, in some cases becoming almost omni directional at very low and very high frequencies. At issue is not high end versus low end shotguns but rather the acoustic physics of the way a line gradient mic achieves its directivity.

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Victor Burdiladze

again, thanks everybody for responding...
Steve, yes I will be filming over the sholder or other POV shots but I"m thinking to use a Sennheiser shotgun for master shots as well... what would be your suggestion regarding that.
Vic
P.S. Also, what do you guys thinking about AKG's SE 300b with couple different capsules?

Haven't used an AKG SE300B "Blueline" series yet myself but I hear very good things about them and am giving the purchase of a kit of them very serious consideration until my budget will sustain Schoeps. Several users I've read compare them very favourably to the Schoeps and use them in risky situations in lieu of their mainstay but expensive CMC641. Nothing is perfect and one downside of the Schoeps is that it's fairly sensitive to moisture but the AKG SE300B/CK93 hyper is much less so and so a number of mixers will substitute the AKG for their Schoeps in very high humidity or moist environments.

I figure a pair of power/preamp modules with a pair each of the omni and cardioid capsules and 1 each of the hyper and figure-8 capsules gives you a flexible kit that can cover a very wide range of both stereo and mono recording situations from booming dialog to stereo music recording to whatever.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Chris Hocking

...From what I've been reading over the past month or so, shotguns are simply inappropriate for indoor use. I'm just wondering if this advice is not appropriate for the more highend range of microphones, like the Sennheiser MKH range...

The main issue is that in smaller rooms (like any room in a house!) there are lots of reflections of the sound off walls, ceilings and floors. All shotguns tend to be very non-directional for bass and low-mid frequencies. When the lower frequencies bounce off the walls and back to the mic, they will have traveled a greater distance than those coming from whoever is talking - and the mic will pick them up because of that lack of directionality at those freqs.

This leads to a very un-natural sound. If you wanted to read more about this, the audio engineering terms are phase cancellation and comb-effect.

So many productions are now shooting indie-style in real locations like houses, businesses & classrooms, "shotguns are simply inappropriate for indoor use" has become accepted as truth.

Shotguns are used all the time in larger rooms that don't have the issues with reflectivity - hotel ballrooms, theaters, large sound stages, etc. - by pro sound mixers. The real issue is not indoors vs. outdoors, it's reflectivity of bass frequencies in the location. And yes, as Steve wrote, all shotgun-style mics are susceptible to it.

But no mixer goes in blindly and says "hey, it's a big room, my shotgun will work for this scene." Any experienced mixer will be listening to everything and changing mics to get the best sound they can, because even a big room can have troublesome reflections, or might in one area of the room. And a small room may not have this issue, depending on the architecture, and the floor, wall, window and ceiling coverings and furnishings. Sound does some funny things.

[Dave Largent]

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

This leads to a very un-natural sound. If you wanted to read more about this, the audio engineering terms are phase cancellation and comb-effect.

I call it "sounding hollow". Once you hear it you
really shy away from using shotguns indoors.
I was about ready to sell my AT4073 shotgun
because I had only used it indoors and had never
gotten any decent sound out of it. Then I used it
the 4073 one time outdoors and saw how it really
shined there, so I decided to keep it.

[Victor Burdiladze]

Guys, thanks a lot... lot of usefull information to use.
Vic.
P.S. both AKG Blue Line and, especially,Schoeps cmc641 with it's 20 capsules will be one of my first cosiderations for renting.

[Chris Hocking]

Thanks for your answers everyone!

I'm sorry, but I still don't think I completely understand...

From what I've read:

- The MKH 416 is not suitable for "indoors" (and I use the term loosely), due to the nature of short shotguns
- The MKH 60 is suitable indoors, due to its Schoeps CMC641-like hypercardiod pattern
- The MKH 70 is suitable for indoor shoots as it has a similar pattern to the MKH 60, but merely has a slightly longer throw
- The Schoeps CMC641 is a great all-round microphone (ie. can be used successfully indoors and out with appropriate wind protection), in "friendly" conditions; its limitation is that because its engineered so presisely, you have to treat it with the upmost care - it doesn't like damp/humid/high moisture environments

Am I understanding correctly?

[Joe Barker]

The 416 works fine indoors, use a boom operator and keep the mike on target with the actors mouth and the correct distance away.If you remain consistent with those parrameters you should get warm clear and consistant sound.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

I have both MKH416s and SE300s, using short hyper-cardioid and shotgun capsules. They are both great for indoors work.

But the MKH416 and the SE300+shotgun need some pointing to the people who are talking for better response. You can choose to point at the middle and compromise with the slightly less directional response.

My choices, in quality order:

1) Use the shotguns with a mic operator.

2) Use a hyper-cardioid capsule, which is much more forgiving.

3) Use a cardioid mic, with a much more open spread. Go closer.

4) Use the shotguns, mid pointed.

5) Use a lapel mic placed between the speakers.

One option will certainly serve your purposes or most purposes.

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Joe Barker

The 416 works fine indoors, use a boom operator and keep the mike on target with the actors mouth and the correct distance away.If you remain consistent with those parrameters you should get warm clear and consistant sound.

I'd have to disagree, except if by "indoors" you mean an acoustically treated studio or otherwise non-reflective environment like a soundstage or auditorium. In most interior environments such as, say, a typical office, classroom, or residence the 416 and other shotguns sound to my ears like the talent is down in the bottom of a well, indistinct and hollow.