Untraditional Microphones/Mixers... at DVinfo.net

Chris Hocking · May 1st, 2006, 12:19 AM

Hi Everyone,

I am filming some indoor footage on the weekend. Normally I would use my ME66 on a boom (simply because that's all I've got) and spend a fair amount of time on Pro Tools fixing the sound in post. But I've just remembered, I have access to a lot of "live" microphones. I'm not sound expert (yet!), and I was wondering if I could get your advice on which of the following would be best suited for capturing dialog and atmos (office environment, but also filming in bathrooms and kitchens with exhaust fans):

- Continue using the ME66
- Shure Beta 58A
- Shure Beta 57A
- Shure PG81

I've also got a "Behringer Eurorack MXB1002" (cheap small 8 channel fader mixer that can run off batteries) which I bought for something non-video related. I was wondering if I should use that to "mix" the audio on location, and feed the audio into my Z1P from the Eurorack?

I can't afford (at this stage) to purchase new microphones or field mixers.

What do you think?

Chris!

Steve House · May 1st, 2006, 05:55 AM

Shotguns like the ME66 do very poorly in reflective environments such as most indoor locations due to the colouration of sounds arriving off-axis and from rear. Using it in an extremely reflective environment like a bathroom or kitchen is going to be an absolute nightmare! I'd do a test run with the 81 and the 57 and see which you like best. The 57 and 58 have a high frequency emphasis, good for music vocal but maybe not so good for dialog, while the 81 is relatively flat with an adjustable LF rolloff that might help. In the kitchen shots can't you get them to turn off the exhaust fans, fridges, etc while you're rolling? How about renting a couple of lav mics to put on the talent?

Chris Hocking · May 1st, 2006, 06:40 AM

Thanks for your reply Steve...!

I've just spent the last couple of hours scrolling back through the "Now Hear This" threads. I must say, there is so much fantastic information!

I was very suprised to hear so many negative things about the ME66. I know [first hand] how bad it is for indoor shoots, but there is so many complains about the microphone in general!

As Steve has suggested I'll give the Shure mics a test run when I get a chance and see how they work out. I'll post my results here.

Unfortunatley, the exhaust fans in the kitchen shots can not be turned off. It's a limitation of this particular venue.

Now after reading a lot of posts on this forum (and based on Steve's comments), I'm starting to think that using lapel mics might be the way to go (to record the dialog - not atmos). Even though I said I can't afford to purchase any new microphones, I'd prefer to count the 5c coins in my piggy bank and see if I can gather together enough money to purchase something that will a handy tool to keep in my kit for future projects. I've had a quick look at the "Sennheiser ew 122-p G2 Series" and the "Sony UWPC1 UHF Series". Has anyone had any experience with them? I don't have a budget yet (gotta get counting!), but it will have to be under AUD$1000 (which both the Sony and Sennheiser are).

I know this has been discussed before but I couldn't find a conclusive answer: I'm also wondering if it worth purchasing something like ME64 for indoor dialog shots seeing as I already have the K6 power supply? Is it appropriate?

I'm currently researching other indoor dialog mic alternatives (such as the AT4053 and AKG CK93). If you have a favorite, please tell (or if appropriate, post a link to the relevant thread).

Finally, should I use the ME66 for atmos? Alternatives?

Again, thanks for your advice Steve! I'm slowly learning as much as I can about audio for no-budget productions. Every bit of information you tell me helps put the jigsaw together!

Chris!

Chris Hocking · May 1st, 2006, 06:59 AM

Discovered after posting:

"A definitevely comparison between Sony UWP-C1 and Sennheiser Evolution G2 ???"
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=31103

Chris Hocking · May 1st, 2006, 07:07 AM

After doing some further reading, the Rode Hypercardioid NT3 (AUD$285) keeped popping up. Do you think this is a good option for INDOOR shots?

It would be really nice to NOT used my ME66 for indoor shots in future (it's a pain in the butt to make it sound half decent!).

FYI: The only reason I purchased it in the first place was because it was offered to me REALLY cheap (when I purchased a whole heap of other stuff).

Chris!

Marco Leavitt · May 1st, 2006, 07:31 AM

For what it's worth, I think people are way too hard on the ME66. I think one reason may be that many people have tried to make it their only mic, and as has been mentioned, it stinks indoors. The ME64 does better indoors (as you've apparently read), but if you have phantom power there are a number of other mics which are miles better for most applications. Don't know about Rode. Seems awfully heavy to put on a boom

Chris Hocking · May 1st, 2006, 07:47 AM

Thanks for your reply Marco!

Yes, I agree. As I've said, I've had no problems with the ME66 outdoors, and after a LOT of work, can usually make the audio captured using the ME66 usable from indoor shots (and I'm not an audio dude by any strech of the imagination!).

So I guess my question now is, what's a good addition to my kit for indoor shots (specifically, office environments - possibly even toilets and kitchens if not using lapel)? I've read that the ME64 is "better" than the ME66, but it's maybe not the most appropriate solution (even though I already have the K6 power module). It's probably better to spend a little more and get a better quality mic that we "last" a bit longer.

I guess the weight issue makes the Rode NT3 inappropriate for booming.

Oh, and yes, I have phantom power.

I'm still interested to see if you think using the Eurorack is worth it? The only reason I'm concidering it is because I find the audio meters and volume controls on the Z1P to be annoying. What are your thoughts? I'd love to purchase a Sound Devices field mixer (MixPre, 302 or 442) - but I just don't have the money. Also, ME66 for atmos?

Chris!

Marco Leavitt · May 1st, 2006, 08:23 AM

Don't know the Eurotrack. I use the SD302, and have pretty much been spoiled by it. I wouldn't settle for anything less, but that's me.

I like the ME64, but if you can swing a better mic, do it. Anymore, I pretty much just use mine for sound collection and informal camera mounting, or just dinking around. The onboard power is handy. It's a fun mic.

There's really no mystery over your other mic choices (as you've no doubt read).

Lots of money? Get a CMC6 MK41 or Sennheiser MKH50.

Not quite as much money? AKG CK63 or CK61.

Not much money? AT4053 or AKG CK93.

No money? Octava from the Sound Room.

Out of all these, I only have experience with the Schoeps and the CK93, but this is pretty much the standard line.

Ralph Keyser · May 1st, 2006, 04:25 PM

I'm also in the camp that thinks people are generally too hard on the ME66, and I think it has been mis-used due to it's popularity. What it's good at is providing a strong signal for going direct to camera. If that's your entire sound package, then I can understand why folks wouldn't be happy. It's an entry level microphone if you are looking for professional results.

I think the ME64 capsule would be a cheap route to better indoor sound for you. Having said that, Marco's recommendations are right on target.

Chris Hocking · May 1st, 2006, 06:12 PM

Thanks for your replies Marco and Ralph!

Just out of interest, where does the ME64 fit into your mic preference list ("not quite as much money", "not much money" or "no money")?

To be very specific now, what would be the BEST mic to use in a toilet cubical? Would the ME64 be a viable option? (As suggested previously, I know a lapel would be the best option - but just say I can't get hold of one).

I'm now seriously concidering, after reading a lot about audio on these forums, that I should just bite the bullet and start getting a GOOD audio kit together. I already have the ME66, boom pole (with Rycote Softie 21/22mm head), cable, etc. Now I'm starting to concider purchasing a field mixer (MixPre vs 302), a wireless lav kit and a mic better suited for indoor use. Hopefully my bank doesn't read this post.

FYI: The Eurorack is just a cheap'n'nasty Behringeer mixer. I use it at home so I can connect two music keyboards into the one amp.

Chris!

Bill Ball · May 2nd, 2006, 06:57 AM

I can't comment on the other microphones, but I got the ME64 for indoor dialog when I found ME66 not suitable for indoor use. I am very happy with the ME64, much better in reflective rooms than the ME66. Consider that you not only already own the K6 powering module but also already have the correct size softie for the ME64.

Bill Ball · May 2nd, 2006, 07:01 AM

I didnt see your last post. A directional mic will be a disaster in a toliet stall. You need to use an omni such as a lapel mic (even a really cheap one) or better yet, record the sound somewhere else under better conditions and get create with the editing.

Chris Hocking · May 2nd, 2006, 07:13 AM

Thanks for your replies Bill!

I am going to have a look at the ME64 for INDOOR shoots.

Have you ever used the ME62 Omni-Directional Mic? Would that be suitable for toilets, bathrooms, etc.? (And yes, I know a lapel would be much more appropriate.)

I also found out today that the ATW portable radio mic systems do not meet Australian standards, so you can't buy them here [yet]. I guess I better continue to research Sony vs Sennheiser! Any other alternatives?

Chris!

Marco Leavitt · May 2nd, 2006, 07:17 AM

"Just out of interest, where does the ME64 fit into your mic preference list ("not quite as much money", "not much money" or "no money")?"

If you have phantom power, it doesn't make the list, at least not for me. But since you already have the K6 power module, it's only another $155 for the ME64 cap. I don't think you'll find a better mic for your purposes in that price range.

For that bathroom cubicle, this is the sort of tough environment where the Schoeps really shines. You'll still get echo, but the viewer would expect it to be there -- it is a bathroom after all. You might try covering the floor of the whole bathroom with blankets and hanging them in front of every wall outside the stall. It's hard to know with blankets. Sometimes a couple help a lot, and sometimes a whole bunch do squat.

Chris Hocking · May 2nd, 2006, 07:40 AM

Thanks for your reply Marco.

For those who might be interested, I did some researching on pricing. All prices in Australian dollars.

Sennheiser MKH50: $2190.00
AKG CK63: $974.00 (with power supply)
AKG CK61: $974.00 (with power supply)
AT4053: $650.00
AKG CK93: $558.00 (with power supply)

ME64: $329 (capsule only)

I couldn't find anyone here who sells the CMC6 MK41.

At this stage, I'm seriously concidering the ME64 as I already have the K6 and also a wireless lapel (still comparing Sony to Sennheiser). I have two old Shure L4 rackmount units (with lapel transmitters) at home - but it's too much trouble carting them around! I'm seriously concidering the Sony UWPC1 UHF Wireless Lapel Mic System OR Sennheiser ew 112-p G2 Wireless Lapel Mic System. Still not sure which is the better of the two.

Macro what do you think is the better option: purchase the ME64 (as I already have the K6) and a wireless lapel system OR purchase one of your recommened mics (under $1000) and NOT purchase a lapel system. Let's assume my budget is under $1000.

Again, thank you all for your continued help and support! I really appreciate it!

Chris!

May 1st, 2006, 12:19 AM	#1
Chris Hocking Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 595	Untraditional Microphones/Mixers... Hi Everyone, I am filming some indoor footage on the weekend. Normally I would use my ME66 on a boom (simply because that's all I've got) and spend a fair amount of time on Pro Tools fixing the sound in post. But I've just remembered, I have access to a lot of "live" microphones. I'm not sound expert (yet!), and I was wondering if I could get your advice on which of the following would be best suited for capturing dialog and atmos (office environment, but also filming in bathrooms and kitchens with exhaust fans): - Continue using the ME66 - Shure Beta 58A - Shure Beta 57A - Shure PG81 I've also got a "Behringer Eurorack MXB1002" (cheap small 8 channel fader mixer that can run off batteries) which I bought for something non-video related. I was wondering if I should use that to "mix" the audio on location, and feed the audio into my Z1P from the Eurorack? I can't afford (at this stage) to purchase new microphones or field mixers. What do you think? Chris!

May 1st, 2006, 05:55 AM	#2
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	Shotguns like the ME66 do very poorly in reflective environments such as most indoor locations due to the colouration of sounds arriving off-axis and from rear. Using it in an extremely reflective environment like a bathroom or kitchen is going to be an absolute nightmare! I'd do a test run with the 81 and the 57 and see which you like best. The 57 and 58 have a high frequency emphasis, good for music vocal but maybe not so good for dialog, while the 81 is relatively flat with an adjustable LF rolloff that might help. In the kitchen shots can't you get them to turn off the exhaust fans, fridges, etc while you're rolling? How about renting a couple of lav mics to put on the talent? __________________ Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

May 1st, 2006, 06:40 AM	#3
Chris Hocking Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 595	Reply to Steve... Thanks for your reply Steve...! I've just spent the last couple of hours scrolling back through the "Now Hear This" threads. I must say, there is so much fantastic information! I was very suprised to hear so many negative things about the ME66. I know [first hand] how bad it is for indoor shoots, but there is so many complains about the microphone in general! As Steve has suggested I'll give the Shure mics a test run when I get a chance and see how they work out. I'll post my results here. Unfortunatley, the exhaust fans in the kitchen shots can not be turned off. It's a limitation of this particular venue. Now after reading a lot of posts on this forum (and based on Steve's comments), I'm starting to think that using lapel mics might be the way to go (to record the dialog - not atmos). Even though I said I can't afford to purchase any new microphones, I'd prefer to count the 5c coins in my piggy bank and see if I can gather together enough money to purchase something that will a handy tool to keep in my kit for future projects. I've had a quick look at the "Sennheiser ew 122-p G2 Series" and the "Sony UWPC1 UHF Series". Has anyone had any experience with them? I don't have a budget yet (gotta get counting!), but it will have to be under AUD$1000 (which both the Sony and Sennheiser are). I know this has been discussed before but I couldn't find a conclusive answer: I'm also wondering if it worth purchasing something like ME64 for indoor dialog shots seeing as I already have the K6 power supply? Is it appropriate? I'm currently researching other indoor dialog mic alternatives (such as the AT4053 and AKG CK93). If you have a favorite, please tell (or if appropriate, post a link to the relevant thread). Finally, should I use the ME66 for atmos? Alternatives? Again, thanks for your advice Steve! I'm slowly learning as much as I can about audio for no-budget productions. Every bit of information you tell me helps put the jigsaw together! Chris!

May 1st, 2006, 06:59 AM	#4
Chris Hocking Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 595	Wireless Lapels Discovered after posting: "A definitevely comparison between Sony UWP-C1 and Sennheiser Evolution G2 ???" http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=31103

May 1st, 2006, 07:07 AM	#5
Chris Hocking Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 595	Rode NT3 After doing some further reading, the Rode Hypercardioid NT3 (AUD$285) keeped popping up. Do you think this is a good option for INDOOR shots? It would be really nice to NOT used my ME66 for indoor shots in future (it's a pain in the butt to make it sound half decent!). FYI: The only reason I purchased it in the first place was because it was offered to me REALLY cheap (when I purchased a whole heap of other stuff). Chris!

May 1st, 2006, 07:31 AM	#6
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	For what it's worth, I think people are way too hard on the ME66. I think one reason may be that many people have tried to make it their only mic, and as has been mentioned, it stinks indoors. The ME64 does better indoors (as you've apparently read), but if you have phantom power there are a number of other mics which are miles better for most applications. Don't know about Rode. Seems awfully heavy to put on a boom

May 1st, 2006, 07:47 AM	#7
Chris Hocking Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 595	Reply to Marco... Thanks for your reply Marco! Yes, I agree. As I've said, I've had no problems with the ME66 outdoors, and after a LOT of work, can usually make the audio captured using the ME66 usable from indoor shots (and I'm not an audio dude by any strech of the imagination!). So I guess my question now is, what's a good addition to my kit for indoor shots (specifically, office environments - possibly even toilets and kitchens if not using lapel)? I've read that the ME64 is "better" than the ME66, but it's maybe not the most appropriate solution (even though I already have the K6 power module). It's probably better to spend a little more and get a better quality mic that we "last" a bit longer. I guess the weight issue makes the Rode NT3 inappropriate for booming. Oh, and yes, I have phantom power. I'm still interested to see if you think using the Eurorack is worth it? The only reason I'm concidering it is because I find the audio meters and volume controls on the Z1P to be annoying. What are your thoughts? I'd love to purchase a Sound Devices field mixer (MixPre, 302 or 442) - but I just don't have the money. Also, ME66 for atmos? Chris!

May 1st, 2006, 08:23 AM	#8
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Don't know the Eurotrack. I use the SD302, and have pretty much been spoiled by it. I wouldn't settle for anything less, but that's me. I like the ME64, but if you can swing a better mic, do it. Anymore, I pretty much just use mine for sound collection and informal camera mounting, or just dinking around. The onboard power is handy. It's a fun mic. There's really no mystery over your other mic choices (as you've no doubt read). Lots of money? Get a CMC6 MK41 or Sennheiser MKH50. Not quite as much money? AKG CK63 or CK61. Not much money? AT4053 or AKG CK93. No money? Octava from the Sound Room. Out of all these, I only have experience with the Schoeps and the CK93, but this is pretty much the standard line.

May 1st, 2006, 04:25 PM	#9
Ralph Keyser Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico USA Posts: 287	I'm also in the camp that thinks people are generally too hard on the ME66, and I think it has been mis-used due to it's popularity. What it's good at is providing a strong signal for going direct to camera. If that's your entire sound package, then I can understand why folks wouldn't be happy. It's an entry level microphone if you are looking for professional results. I think the ME64 capsule would be a cheap route to better indoor sound for you. Having said that, Marco's recommendations are right on target.

May 1st, 2006, 06:12 PM	#10
Chris Hocking Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 595	Reply to Marco & Ralph... Thanks for your replies Marco and Ralph! Just out of interest, where does the ME64 fit into your mic preference list ("not quite as much money", "not much money" or "no money")? To be very specific now, what would be the BEST mic to use in a toilet cubical? Would the ME64 be a viable option? (As suggested previously, I know a lapel would be the best option - but just say I can't get hold of one). I'm now seriously concidering, after reading a lot about audio on these forums, that I should just bite the bullet and start getting a GOOD audio kit together. I already have the ME66, boom pole (with Rycote Softie 21/22mm head), cable, etc. Now I'm starting to concider purchasing a field mixer (MixPre vs 302), a wireless lav kit and a mic better suited for indoor use. Hopefully my bank doesn't read this post. FYI: The Eurorack is just a cheap'n'nasty Behringeer mixer. I use it at home so I can connect two music keyboards into the one amp. Chris!

May 2nd, 2006, 06:57 AM	#11
Bill Ball Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: NEW JERSEY Posts: 216	I can't comment on the other microphones, but I got the ME64 for indoor dialog when I found ME66 not suitable for indoor use. I am very happy with the ME64, much better in reflective rooms than the ME66. Consider that you not only already own the K6 powering module but also already have the correct size softie for the ME64.

May 2nd, 2006, 07:01 AM	#12
Bill Ball Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: NEW JERSEY Posts: 216	I didnt see your last post. A directional mic will be a disaster in a toliet stall. You need to use an omni such as a lapel mic (even a really cheap one) or better yet, record the sound somewhere else under better conditions and get create with the editing.

May 2nd, 2006, 07:13 AM	#13
Chris Hocking Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 595	Reply to Bill... Thanks for your replies Bill! I am going to have a look at the ME64 for INDOOR shoots. Have you ever used the ME62 Omni-Directional Mic? Would that be suitable for toilets, bathrooms, etc.? (And yes, I know a lapel would be much more appropriate.) I also found out today that the ATW portable radio mic systems do not meet Australian standards, so you can't buy them here [yet]. I guess I better continue to research Sony vs Sennheiser! Any other alternatives? Chris!

May 2nd, 2006, 07:17 AM	#14
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	"Just out of interest, where does the ME64 fit into your mic preference list ("not quite as much money", "not much money" or "no money")?" If you have phantom power, it doesn't make the list, at least not for me. But since you already have the K6 power module, it's only another $155 for the ME64 cap. I don't think you'll find a better mic for your purposes in that price range. For that bathroom cubicle, this is the sort of tough environment where the Schoeps really shines. You'll still get echo, but the viewer would expect it to be there -- it is a bathroom after all. You might try covering the floor of the whole bathroom with blankets and hanging them in front of every wall outside the stall. It's hard to know with blankets. Sometimes a couple help a lot, and sometimes a whole bunch do squat.

May 2nd, 2006, 07:40 AM	#15
Chris Hocking Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 595	Reply to Marco... Thanks for your reply Marco. For those who might be interested, I did some researching on pricing. All prices in Australian dollars. Sennheiser MKH50: $2190.00 AKG CK63: $974.00 (with power supply) AKG CK61: $974.00 (with power supply) AT4053: $650.00 AKG CK93: $558.00 (with power supply) ME64: $329 (capsule only) I couldn't find anyone here who sells the CMC6 MK41. At this stage, I'm seriously concidering the ME64 as I already have the K6 and also a wireless lapel (still comparing Sony to Sennheiser). I have two old Shure L4 rackmount units (with lapel transmitters) at home - but it's too much trouble carting them around! I'm seriously concidering the Sony UWPC1 UHF Wireless Lapel Mic System OR Sennheiser ew 112-p G2 Wireless Lapel Mic System. Still not sure which is the better of the two. Macro what do you think is the better option: purchase the ME64 (as I already have the K6) and a wireless lapel system OR purchase one of your recommened mics (under $1000) and NOT purchase a lapel system. Let's assume my budget is under $1000. Again, thank you all for your continued help and support! I really appreciate it! Chris!