cmc 641 or cmit 5u?

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Pietro Jona

Ty, I was waiting for your answer. Thank you.
Camera mounting is not something I want but I know (and hope) that i'll be forced to do so in the near future. I myself am a boom operator (posted here about my problems recording audio in schools with a 416) but I'm planning to shoot in remote areas where being light and not too "visible" will be our first concern: street markets, villages in central Asia/Himalaya and so on. I'm not expecting too much from a camera mounted shotgun, I was just wondering what shall I choose between the on board mic of my Panasonic 100 and a shotgun, GIVEN that sometimes I won't be able to use a boom and that I'll do my best to put a lavaliere on the person speaking.

**You going to try to stick a lav on someone? Into the personal space and on the body of a complete stranger? Fascinating. If you already have a 416, use it outside, but know that outside in a hard environment with walls, streets and roads, that a shotgun will also pickup a lot more on the sides than you may want.


How do you see a cmc641 camera mounted? Not very well, I guess.. better a CMIT? It's what I'm trying to understand.

***A mount is a mount. The shooting logistics you seem to be after compromise getting the best sound. Once you're more than three feet from the source, the beneficial effects of a good mic are compromised.


Ok, this was about camera mounting.
For the rest of my job I guess I understood, better a hyper outdoors than a shotgun indoors. I only have a moderate experience with shotguns, is it much more difficult to keep a subject "on mike" with a Hyper?

Depends on the mic. The CMIT is very nice as you go off axis. The 416 and 4073a have some weird edges.

Is there any way to fix in post the bad sound when the subject turns his head while speaking or gets off mike?

***No.


And the last two questions:
-professional mixers like the PSC M4MKII that I use are made for Betacams and not for dv. I had problems sometimes in setting the right camera levels on the panasonic with the reference tone coming from the mixer. I was thinking to start using a mixer made for dv, like the DV PROMIX3 but I don't know how good are his preamps. I mean it is very cheap compared to his bigger brother..

***Setting levels (calibrating) should have nothing to do with the design of the mixer. The main difference is plumbing (connectors). What problems do you refer to?

-I don't like so much the standard Sennheiser 100 lav, I had saturation even with the transmitter set to -30db. Can you -or anybody- suggest a good and hidable lav/transmitter/receiver?
I know I asked too much, thank you for your replies!
ciao
pietro

*** again, I am not familiar with any problem, other than not knowing what to do with the gear. Perhaps you can explain further.

Ty Ford

[Pietro Jona]

I set the levels exactly as Steve says:
"Activate the tone in your mixer and set the mixer output to show 0db on the mixer's meters. At the camera, set the audio control to manual and adjust the level controls until the tone reads -12db on the camera's meters".
After doing that, as a boom/mixer operator, I should be confident that what I see on the mixer's display is what I get on tape. Most of the time, when I'm able to whatch directly the camera display, I see two or more red dots on the camera display while the mixer's display shows me "0". This happens when pople talk, not when I'm recording a more regular sound, may be it is a matter of some delay in showing the levels, or a different speed in meter's response.. Now I'm confortable by setting the camera levels to -14 or -16 when sending the reference tone from the mixer set to "0". Not a big problem but it would be nice to be more confident in what i see in the mixer's display. Forget about..

As for going off axis, I understand that the CMIT is very nice. Will even the cmc641 be "forgiving of subject movement"? Do I understand right?

And, Ty: I'm going to stick a lav on someone I know! He will be walking around and occasionally speak, to the camera, to me or to other poeple. Anyway I'll try to become a friend of anyone I want to stick a lav on before i do..
Thank you very much to everybody, sorry for the bad english.
and don't forget to suggest a good lav!
ciao
pietro

[Oleg Kaizerman]

Originally Posted by Pietro Jona

I set the levels exactly as Steve says:
"Activate the tone in your mixer and set the mixer output to show 0db on the mixer's meters. At the camera, set the audio control to manual and adjust the level controls until the tone reads -12db on the camera's meters".
After doing that, as a boom/mixer operator, I should be confident that what I see on the mixer's display is what I get on tape. Most of the time, when I'm able to whatch directly the camera display, I see two or more red dots on the camera display while the mixer's display shows me "0". This happens when pople talk, not when I'm recording a more regular sound, may be it is a matter of some delay in showing the levels, or a different speed in meter's response.. Now I'm confortable by setting the camera levels to -14 or -16 when sending the reference tone from the mixer set to "0". Not a big problem but it would be nice to be more confident in what i see in the mixer's display. Forget about..

As for going off axis, I understand that the CMIT is very nice. Will even the cmc641 be "forgiving of subject movement"? Do I understand right?

And, Ty: I'm going to stick a lav on someone I know! He will be walking around and occasionally speak, to the camera, to me or to other poeple. Anyway I'll try to become a friend of anyone I want to stick a lav on before i do..
Thank you very much to everybody, sorry for the bad english.
and don't forget to suggest a good lav!
ciao
pietro

to set the camera as -12 dbfs reference to 0 dbu is the one of the worst things i heard for dialog recording , usially the picks are 6-8 db higher and not controlled picks could go up much more , so staying whith 4 db headroom is something very stuipid
the -12dbfs setting mostly good for music recording which usially compressed with very low dinamic range ( if you recording from pa or concert , the dynamic range of the dialog can easily go from8 to 20 db

what camera do you use and which mixer ?
there is no one rule for all the dv setting
the only one is your mixer should distort befor your camera
so if your mixer able get out 22 dbu you should calibrate it as -22 dbfs , if it cant handle this amount you will have to pad the outputs .

some cameras can handle it in the analog stage and some cant so you can record extrimly well distorted signal and see no brick wolling on the camera .

[Pietro Jona]

Oleg:
I use a Panasonic dvx100 mini dv and a PSC M4MKII mixer. I wish I could speak and write a better english-explain myself better.
After setting the levels "0" on the mixer's output (reference tone) and "0" on the camera (the round spot between the white ones and the red ones, which is -12db) I take care not to send a too high input to the camera by costantly keeping the levels of the mixer below 0, maximum 0.
I deal with wild teenagers, they go from whisper to scream in 1/100 of second.
I mean, i try to keep the peaks at 0, not the average.
If you know the camera and the mixer I'm using and you know that I'm doing something stupid, thanks for telling me.
But please now tell me how to do right..

[Oleg Kaizerman]

since i dont remember the mixer , last time touched about 4-5 yeras ag i only rember that the scale is in some way was made to imitate the beta sp .
so actually i dont know where is the highest point this mixer can go whithout distort .
so the best way to find out the calibrating point .
connect external tone generator to your mixer input , rise the level until you get distortion in the headphones ,go back to the point you dont hear distortion .
put your camera dials on 12 oclock , check if you hear distortion( connect the camera rca outs to your mixer return) , if yes , dial the mixer back to the point you dont hear it
now you have the higest voltage your camera can handle whithout distort .
20 db under is have to be your reference tone , if that point is over your zero on mixer you will need atunitae the mixer output .

so if your mixer is 0 dbu for 0 db on the meter you need at least 5-6 db atunuators
then its -20 dbfs on the camera scale - working normally the picks flying to zero or more will give you 6-8 db over the regullar headroom .

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Pietro Jona

I set the levels exactly as Steve says:
"Activate the tone in your mixer and set the mixer output to show 0db on the mixer's meters. At the camera, set the audio control to manual and adjust the level controls until the tone reads -12db on the camera's meters".
After doing that, as a boom/mixer operator, I should be confident that what I see on the mixer's display is what I get on tape. Most of the time, when I'm able to whatch directly the camera display, I see two or more red dots on the camera display while the mixer's display shows me "0". This happens when pople talk, not when I'm recording a more regular sound, may be it is a matter of some delay in showing the levels, or a different speed in meter's response.. Now I'm confortable by setting the camera levels to -14 or -16 when sending the reference tone from the mixer set to "0". Not a big problem but it would be nice to be more confident in what i see in the mixer's display. Forget about..

As for going off axis, I understand that the CMIT is very nice. Will even the cmc641 be "forgiving of subject movement"? Do I understand right?

And, Ty: I'm going to stick a lav on someone I know! He will be walking around and occasionally speak, to the camera, to me or to other poeple. Anyway I'll try to become a friend of anyone I want to stick a lav on before i do..
Thank you very much to everybody, sorry for the bad english.
and don't forget to suggest a good lav!
ciao
pietro

Ciao Pietro,

Your english is 1000 times better than my Italian, even better than Oleg's.
I think the problem may be that the mixer meters may not be set to PEAK. Check the manual. Unless the mixer can display PEAK readings, you will surely clip the audio. Peaks can be anywhere from 3-4 DB to 12-14 dB above RMS level.

If you know the person, that's OK. I was imagining you walking up to someone on the street for an interview and trying to put a mic on them.

I don't know exactly how wide the CMIT and cmc641 are realtively. Both are wider at a distance than up close.

If you can position it properly (pointed up) the AT 831 is good at rejecting surrounding sound.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...17a/index.html

These days, I use Countryman EMW omnis most of the time. Sometimes an B6.


Ty Ford

[Steve House]

Thanks for catching me on that Ty, should have said something about peak versus VU.

[Oleg Kaizerman]

lets say if you will attenuate the mixer with 4-6 db and put the mixer zero ( 0dbv ) FOR -20 DBFS you will be able jump between the 0-+4 on mixwer vu meters without distort the camera input .
that way you wouldn't have any need to open the limiters which sits very low for digital recording .
just keep the meter hit the +3on the mixer in regullar conversation that will give you at least 12 dbu picks and you will stay with 8 db headroom for unexpected ones .
the scale on this mixer was done to make work whith beta sp cameras and not in the best way.

the vu( uv- useless values) meter is quit useless for normal work and only corespondents average loudness while unexpected pick can definitely distort your camera input)

[Pietro Jona]

Thank you for taking the time to give me an answer.
I think that the mixer i use can display PEAK readings (see manual: http://www.professionalsound.com/M4mkII.pdf) but I'm afraid I'm not getting something important about what peak reading is.. I'll try to read another 1000 times the manual and your posts.

Anyway I'll be using the PSC for the last time in the next days and then I'll have to buy a "personal" mixer for the next job. I'll learn more about that one hopefully. Sound devices 302 would be a good choice for DV?

As for the mic, I will probably go with the cmc641 and wait to hear how is using it outdoors. If the reach is not enough I'll buy a shotgun next.

For the lav, I'm not sure I can get Countryman easily whare I live. AT, Tram, Sennheiser and Sanken for sure.

Thanks again
Pietro

[Oleg Kaizerman]

the 302 will be the best choice to interact with every recording device
about the mics
i was more thinking to get more then 1
check the mbho 603/4 with 500 hyper cardioid or akg 480+ uls63 and audio technica 4073 to use outside , the benefit is you have mics for different situations , the other benefit you have back up .
schoeps sucks heavily in humidity situations so was less relley on that one for exteriors ( i have 4 like that they all start to buzz )

[Marco Leavitt]

Oleg,
Do you like the AT4073 better than the CK69? If I was going to buy the ULS series I think I'd get the hypercardiod and shotgun caps.

Also, I'm curious about the "mbho 603/4." I've never heard of that. Is it shorthand for something?

[Oleg Kaizerman]

thats a good choice
i say they are good mics , not sure what is better , the akg is more versatile
i dont own them and i never owned them in the same time to check face to face


mbho is German company - 603 is preamp .604 is a short new version

http://www.amptec.de/test/MBHO%20preamps.html

[Marco Leavitt]

Interesting Mics Oleg. The capsule on that 604 looks just like a Schoeps!

[Oleg Kaizerman]

Originally Posted by Marco Leavitt

Interesting Mics Oleg. The capsule on that 604 looks just like a Schoeps!

schoeps is not the only company which makes detachable capsules
akg ,neumann,se,elation, geffel , octava and others ,even beringher make something like that


mbho have exellent range of capsules and accessories .
no doubt they took Schoeps as good example what you need

http://www.amptec.de/test/MBHO%20capsules.html


this the 604 preamp whith build in swivel
http://www.amptec.de/test/MBHO%20news.html#

[Marco Leavitt]

Yeah, but the shape and color or it (the grey nextel one) -- just like an MK41. I just thought it was odd. That's all.