two sony uwp-c1 receivers + beachtek -- too bulky?

[Patricia Lamm]

I've been wanting to get a pair of Senn G2's but after reading the posts in this forum have come to the conclusion that probably I'm better off getting two Sony UWP-C1's. But I'm concerned about the larger size of the Sony receivers. (I'll also be using a Rode videomic for ambient sound, all of this going into a Beachtek DXA-6 or DXA-8).

My camera (Sony HVR-HC1) will be on a tripod, but this is at a live day-long event where I typically have to move my setup around often (sometimes even going to a monopod). Is this setup at all workable? Or should I go back to the idea of a pair of the smaller G2's??

[Steve House]

What out that you don't run out of audio inputs. The 2 wireless units will require 1 each for a total of 2 and then the Rode will need one as well, making a grand total of 3. The Beachteks don't serve as a mixer.

[Patricia Lamm]

Thanks for the comments, Steve. I was assuming I could use a Y-splitter for the wireless inputs (with an attenuator on one if needed to change the input level). Is that a bad idea?

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Patricia Lamm

Thanks for the comments, Steve. I was assuming I could use a Y-splitter for the wireless inputs (with an attenuator on one if needed to change the input level). Is that a bad idea?

Splitters work to, well, divide a single signal to feed multiple destinations but don't work so good in reverse to combine different signals, which I think is what you're thinking of here. You're going to need a mixer of some sort for optimum results.

[Patricia Lamm]

Well, I guess I just added to the bulkiness of the entire setup! Is there such a thing as a portable mixer? I haven't bought any of the sound equipment yet so I can revise my original plan.

[Dale Paterson]

Hi,

I am not quite sure what you are trying to do i.e. are you trying to create a stereo audio track with 2 x UWP-C1's or combine the input from both into one audio track?

I also not sure what inputs you have on your camera.

I do, however, own several of the UWP Series, and I have tested all possible combinations.

1 - You can mount two receivers on the camera and then use a stereo 'Y' cable to connect them together. This will give you stereo input.

or

2 - You can mount two receivers on the camera and plug the output of each receiver into the Beachtek. You then have a choice - you can select either mono or stereo on the Beachtek. If you select stereo - you will have a stereo audio track - if you select mono the Beachtek will combine both channels into one (but you must be using the XLR inputs not the mini-jack input).

Be very careful to seperate the channels by at least five steps or channels to avoid interference.

I can vouch for the Sony UWP Series - I have a combination of UWP-C1's, UWP-C2's, and UWP-C3',s and if you set them up correctly you don't get any intereference or crosstalk between channels.

Funny enough last week I did a test with all ten of my UWP Series gear i.e. held all of the transmitter / mics in one hand / arm i.e. very close together in a very small space i.e. close to the receivers - no interference whatsoever - they really are good.

The only thing is that a camera loaded with 2 x UWP Series and a Beachtek really does require some sort of support or other - the FX1 gets REALLY heavy!

Hope this helps you out.

Edit:

Sorry - I must mention that I have a Beachtek DXA-2S - not the 6 or 8 like you have. I know I have tried to add a third mic to do something similar but the mic that I wanted to used was stereo and the moment that your switch the Beachtek to mono you obviosuly lose your stereo input from the third mic. I was able to capture sound from both UWP's and the third mic however - all in mono.

Regards,

Dale.

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Dale Paterson

Hi,

I am not quite sure what you are trying to do i.e. are you trying to create a stereo audio track with 2 x UWP-C1's or combine the input from both into one audio track?

I...

My comments were predicated on the assumption she wanted to record both of the wireless mics PLUS the Rode Videomic at once, all three sources ending up in 2 channel stereo. Your suggestion to use a stereo Y-adapter to feed the 2 (mono) wireless receivers into the single stereo mini-jack on the camera should work fine but that still leaves the Rode out in the cold.

[Patricia Lamm]

Originally Posted by Steve House

My comments were predicated on the assumption she wanted to record both of the wireless mics PLUS the Rode Videomic at once, all three sources ending up in 2 channel stereo.

Yes, that was my intention. But now I'm confused by the later edit by Dale:

Originally Posted by Dale Paterson

Sorry - I must mention that I have a Beachtek DXA-2S - not the 6 or 8 like you have. I know I have tried to add a third mic to do something similar but the mic that I wanted to used was stereo and the moment that your switch the Beachtek to mono you obviosuly lose your stereo input from the third mic. I was able to capture sound from both UWP's and the third mic however - all in mono.

This is what I want to do -- capture sound from both UWP's and a third mic, all in mono. How do you do this?? (I haven't bought the Beachtek yet so can go with another model if needed.)

Thanks...

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Patricia Lamm

Yes, that was my intention. But now I'm confused by the later edit by Dale:



This is what I want to do -- capture sound from both UWP's and a third mic, all in mono. How do you do this?? (I haven't bought the Beachtek yet so can go with another model if needed.)

Thanks...

I've been looking for an online copy of the manual for your camera to check my comments regarding what inputs it has without success so double check my assumptions on your camera. I think the most you can record at once when shooting is two channels, normally stereo (though they can just as easily be two mono channels if you wish). All of the Beachteks are two channel in, two channels out. Putting both wireless receivers at once into the Beachtek Aux In minijack input using a Y-adapter so as to have both wirelesses on one channel and the Rode on the other won't work. Also AFAIK you can't use both the Aux In and XLR2 on the Beachteks at once, it's an either/or. So to have all three mics online at once, you need at least a 3 channel input, 2 channel output mixer. May be over your budget but an example would be the Sound Devices 302 (You can find other decent mixers at a lot lower price, but take a look at it to see what I'm talking about.) You could put each wireless receiver and the Rode on its own input channel and select how you wanted each of them to route to the stereo output channel pair - say, Wireless 1 panned panned left, Wireless 2 panned full right, and the Rode centred for ambience.

What shooting scenario are you envisioning using your setup for?

[Patricia Lamm]

Thanks for your response, Steve. My camera has a single minijack stereo input.

My application is as follows: I videotape entire weekends (usually 17 hours) of large dance workshops. There are two instructors each with separate wireless microphones/transmitters (supplied by the local organizer) which are being received by a mixer at the site and sent into speakers. The channels/models of the transmitters/mixers differ widely depending on the location, so I doubt I can count on being able to feed off of their system (in fact, I've been told that I shouldn't count on this). So my goal was to buy my own pair of wireless receiver/transmitters which the instructors are willing to wear in addition to what the local organizers provide them. Beyond that, I would also like a 3rd mic to pick up ambient crowd sound plus the music played at different times during the workshop. It's OK with me if the instructor voices are combined into one mono channel, with the ambient sound going into another.

I've done this type of event twice already with only a single Rode videomic. As you can imagine, even if I'm 10 feet from the instructors as they are speaking, there is excessive room noise that I'm picking up (and would like to be able to control separately) and the quality is only so-so.

I've looked into mixers (and this may be my only option in the end) but I'm a one-man (woman) show and am concerned about all the gear this entails (especially since I can't attach the mixer to the tripod or camera). Often the instructors will ask someone to demonstrate and it means I have to grab my setup and run to another part of a large room. This has worked so far, but the more gear the harder it gets. Any ideas would be appreciated!

[Steve House]

You've got a couple of issues to deal with. One that immediately comes to mind is mic positioning on the instructors. Wearing two body packs is probably not a problem but where are you going to put the mics themselves? Remember each instructor will now have two mics to contend with.

Another potentially major issue is interference between the transmitters. If the venues are providing the mics for the PA, there's no telling what frequencies they'll be operating on. Each transmitter needs its own channel, making a total of at least 4 that will be in use. Your units will need to be frequency agile so you can easily set them when you arrive onsite to different channels from whatever the PA wirelesses will be using.

I can't think of any way to do it without a mixer of some sort, because the bottom line is regardless of what mic you put on what channel you somehow need to squeeze three sources into two channels and a simple Y adapter cable won't work to connect two mono sources like your two wireless receivers together into a single mono signal.

Why do you say you can't attach a mixer to your tripod? There're a number of ways you might manage that and there are a number of small ENG mixers in various price ranges that run on battery power.

[Patricia Lamm]

Originally Posted by Steve House

You've got a couple of issues to deal with. One that immediately comes to mind is mic positioning on the instructors. Wearing two body packs is probably not a problem but where are you going to put the mics themselves? Remember each instructor will now have two mics to contend with.

They're typically provided headset mics so I thought I'd get a lav mic and either attach it to the headset in some way, or else they'd wear it on their clothes. Visibility of the mic isn't a problem -- everyone knows they are wearing them and expects to see them in the videos.

Another potentially major issue is interference between the transmitters. If the venues are providing the mics for the PA, there's no telling what frequencies they'll be operating on. Each transmitter needs its own channel, making a total of at least 4 that will be in use. Your units will need to be frequency agile so you can easily set them when you arrive onsite to different channels from whatever the PA wirelesses will be using.

I was hoping the Sony UPW would be agile enough to handle this. Maybe overly optimistic?

I can't think of any way to do it without a mixer of some sort, because the bottom line is regardless of what mic you put on what channel you somehow need to squeeze three sources into two channels and a simple Y adapter cable won't work to connect two mono sources like your two wireless receivers together into a single mono signal.

Why do you say you can't attach a mixer to your tripod? There're a number of ways you might manage that and there are a number of small ENG mixers in various price ranges that run on battery power.

I assumed that attaching to the tripod wasn't possible, but that's just because I haven't seen such a thing. Are you saying find some sort of bracket that would attach the mixer to the tripod? I haven't seen mixers that mount to the base of the camera. If you know of a reasonable attachment set up I'd certainly go for it.

I don't know if I could swing the Sound Devices 302 money-wise. Maybe the PSC Promix 3? In either case, do I still need the Beachtek DXA8 or does the mixer take the place of this? (i.e., can the mixer go straight to the camera?)

Another question: I know it's significantly to my costs $$$, but out of curiousity could I send the two wireless mics to a mixer at the front of the room (not portable) and then send the mixed output wirelessly to one input of a beachtex attached to my camera? The Rode videomic would then go into the second beachtek input.

Thanks for all the help!

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Patricia Lamm

They're typically provided headset mics so I thought I'd get a lav mic and either attach it to the headset in some way, or else they'd wear it on their clothes. Visibility of the mic isn't a problem -- everyone knows they are wearing them and expects to see them in the videos.
...
I was hoping the Sony UPW would be agile enough to handle this. Maybe overly optimistic?
...
I assumed that attaching to the tripod wasn't possible, but that's just because I haven't seen such a thing. Are you saying find some sort of bracket that would attach the mixer to the tripod? I haven't seen mixers that mount to the base of the camera. If you know of a reasonable attachment set up I'd certainly go for it.

I don't know if I could swing the Sound Devices 302 money-wise. Maybe the PSC Promix 3? In either case, do I still need the Beachtek DXA8 or does the mixer take the place of this? (i.e., can the mixer go straight to the camera?)

Another question: I know it's significantly to my costs $$$, but out of curiousity could I send the two wireless mics to a mixer at the front of the room (not portable) and then send the mixed output wirelessly to one input of a beachtex attached to my camera? The Rode videomic would then go into the second beachtek input.

Thanks for all the help!

Haven't worked with the Sony so I don't know how easy it is to find an unused channel or to change frequencies wwith them.

I'm sure you could come up with a means of attaching a mixer to the tripod - I've seen metal utility shelves that clamp in between the legs of a 'pod' and you could velcro the mixer to the shelf or you could make one out of a couple of light-stand screw clamps and some sheet metal

Another idea is to feed the two wireless mics to the camera, one for each channel feeding the stereo mic jack with a y-adapter (mono Y won't work but stereo, two mono to a single stereo plug, would work just fine. Meanwhile the Videomic could feed a small separate recorder like an m-Audio Microtrack 2496. Sync isn't so crucial for room ambience and you could mix in the ambience track during post. The music might be a headache though.

The promix should work, also Behringer has an very inexpensive battery operated mixer that would suffice. As for going directly to the camera, it might, but you'll need to pay attention to the fact the camera is expecting unbalanced mic level inputs.

[Patricia Lamm]

Thanks again for all the help, Steve.