VHF Lavs or Shotgun

Douglas Spotted Eagle · March 6th, 2006, 04:22 PM

Quote:

I'm going to go have the omni-vs-cardioid experience in person before making another move.

Fischer,
It's not an "omni vs cardioid" argument. It's a "what do I need in this situation. Ty tends to start with an omni in a lot of situations, I tend to try to start with a cardioid. My method requires more cooperation from talent, his method often means extra work in post. And in some cases, Ty likely has to use a cardioid just like I have to use an omni. They're tools. Nothing more.
Would you own a tool box with only Philips screwdrivers?
here's the deal...if the job you're doing only calls for omni's, buy an omni. When you get a job that will call for a uni....buy or rent a uni.
Omni's are safer for the guy who doesn't have control of the talent, but uni's are safer for the guy who has no environmental control.

Ty Ford · March 6th, 2006, 10:24 PM

Mr. Ford was my dad. I'm Ty.

When you do the do with the mics, think about where you would place the mic, where it would point, what it might hear, how you could use it to eliminate noise you didn't want to pick up and how critical placement would be to make use of the directionality.

Look at end address and side address lavs if you can. The two you have chosen are end address. They normally point toward the actor's face. What happens if you turn them away from the face?

How do side address mics differ from end address in how they pickup the voice?

Do all lavs have the same frequency response? Are some brighter? Would those work better under clothing? How much self noise does each one have?

How big are they? can you hide them easily? How do you attach them so you can hide them.

Have fun. Oh, and we'll expect a full report. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford

Fischer Spooner · March 7th, 2006, 03:38 AM

erm, there's not a place in town that has both the 830 and the 831--not samys, not ametron, not locationsound, not guitarcenter. west la music has an 831, and i have to blow some time on the west side tomorrow, and they match any deal you can find, so i'll see if i can compare it to an omni

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Fischer,
It's not an "omni vs cardioid" argument. It's a "what do I need in this situation.

I have to respectfully disagree. In my case, it most certainly is an "omni vs cardioid" argument. I can rent a wireless kit for $40 a day, but I feel like I can build a better kit that would pay itself off at that rate in ten days (that's $400). But that kit gets two and only two microphones. Unless it's one card and one omni in this case (which I'm tempted to do), in my case, I don't see how it can be aything other than an "omni vs cardioid" argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Ty tends to start with an omni in a lot of situations, I tend to try to start with a cardioid. My method requires more cooperation from talent, his method often means extra work in post...Omni's are safer for the guy who doesn't have control of the talent, but uni's are safer for the guy who has no environmental control.

I'll tell you one thing. I like production *a lot* more than post-production. The chances of me myself happily doing post sound work by myself are slim. More and more I'm being convinced the card is it. I'm just curious to see how dramatic the differences are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

When you do the do with the mics, think about where you would place the mic, where it would point, what it might hear, how you could use it to eliminate noise you didn't want to pick up and how critical placement would be to make use of the directionality.

Look at end address and side address lavs if you can. The two you have chosen are end address. They normally point toward the actor's face. What happens if you turn them away from the face? How do side address mics differ from end address in how they pickup the voice? Do all lavs have the same frequency response? Are some brighter? Would those work better under clothing? How much self noise does each one have?

Oyyy placement..

Ty Ford · March 7th, 2006, 03:53 AM

audio is not trivial. :)

Ty Ford

Dean Sensui · March 7th, 2006, 04:51 AM

I'd have to agree: Placement is absolutely important.

I tested a cardioid lav for a home construction show and all went well until three things happened: Talent turned his head; High winds; lav twisted out of position.

In order to keep the talent's voice source within the sweet spot of the cardiod, the lav mic had to be placed low on the chest, about mid-sternum and carefully fixed in an upward position. Any higher and I'd risk having the voice badly colored by off-axis attenuation.

If the mic ever shifted position on the talent -- and when construction workers swing hammers that's almost guaranteed -- all bets were off.

And for wind: Cardioid mics are very sensitive to wind noise.

Now I use an omni lav with a relatively short reach, and place them carefully.

Not perfect. But generally acceptable.

Fischer Spooner · March 7th, 2006, 05:13 AM

OK--I'll consider myself warned about the mic slipping around and the head rotating, but wouldn't the included windscreen (in the case of the AT831) be enough to handle normal winds?

Douglas Spotted Eagle · March 7th, 2006, 08:22 AM

Omnis are just as sensitive to wind. Various uni's will operate differently in high wind as well.
Placement is everything with an omni or uni. Omni's simply permit a higher level of flexibility.
Bear in mind, I spend 20 years as a studio engineer and producer before ever laying a mic for a video shoot. In the recording studio, omni's are somewhat rare, and so I learned my craft using mostly uni's. YMMV.

The type of shoot matters as mentioned above in earlier posts.
If you're planning on renting a kit and then going and shooting your show, that's exceptionally poor planning and a recipe for failure. You MUST know what you're doing with that particular piece of gear, or how it will perform under certain situations well in advance of being in that situation. That's why we train, practice, experiment with new products, to know how they'll fit or not fit our normal work regimen. By example, I have a studio mic kit, and a production mic kit. Almost never do the two meet. One is for extremely controlled, studio use and the mics are far too fragile and expensive to be taking to most shoot situations, and then there are the shoot mics, which I'll occasionally use in the studio, with the 4051 and 4053 being the most common "go betweens."

If you can only afford one mic, I'd likely go with an omni. My favorite low-cost omni right now is the AT 899.

Joe Kras · March 10th, 2006, 06:00 PM

I'm probably closer to your level than DSE's or Ty's. I remember what it means to be spending a lot of time concentrating on a lot of different stuff (amateur talent, lack of enough crew, getting up to speed on a lot of skills concurrently, etc.).

For this point in time, I think that you're better off going with an omni. I believe that not only will your life be (a bit) easier on a shoot, but that you'll end up with better audio than you otherwise would. You have too many things to be paying attention to to concentrate adequately on getting the talent to keep their mouths aligned with the axis of the mic.

Once you have more experience and are more comfortable with the whole process, you may find that you want a cardioid lav, too. You'll know when.

March 6th, 2006, 10:24 PM	#32
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Mr. Ford was my dad. I'm Ty. When you do the do with the mics, think about where you would place the mic, where it would point, what it might hear, how you could use it to eliminate noise you didn't want to pick up and how critical placement would be to make use of the directionality. Look at end address and side address lavs if you can. The two you have chosen are end address. They normally point toward the actor's face. What happens if you turn them away from the face? How do side address mics differ from end address in how they pickup the voice? Do all lavs have the same frequency response? Are some brighter? Would those work better under clothing? How much self noise does each one have? How big are they? can you hide them easily? How do you attach them so you can hide them. Have fun. Oh, and we'll expect a full report. :) Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

March 7th, 2006, 03:53 AM	#34
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	audio is not trivial. :) Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

March 7th, 2006, 04:51 AM	#35
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	I'd have to agree: Placement is absolutely important. I tested a cardioid lav for a home construction show and all went well until three things happened: Talent turned his head; High winds; lav twisted out of position. In order to keep the talent's voice source within the sweet spot of the cardiod, the lav mic had to be placed low on the chest, about mid-sternum and carefully fixed in an upward position. Any higher and I'd risk having the voice badly colored by off-axis attenuation. If the mic ever shifted position on the talent -- and when construction workers swing hammers that's almost guaranteed -- all bets were off. And for wind: Cardioid mics are very sensitive to wind noise. Now I use an omni lav with a relatively short reach, and place them carefully. Not perfect. But generally acceptable. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

March 7th, 2006, 08:22 AM	#37
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Omnis are just as sensitive to wind. Various uni's will operate differently in high wind as well. Placement is everything with an omni or uni. Omni's simply permit a higher level of flexibility. Bear in mind, I spend 20 years as a studio engineer and producer before ever laying a mic for a video shoot. In the recording studio, omni's are somewhat rare, and so I learned my craft using mostly uni's. YMMV. The type of shoot matters as mentioned above in earlier posts. If you're planning on renting a kit and then going and shooting your show, that's exceptionally poor planning and a recipe for failure. You MUST know what you're doing with that particular piece of gear, or how it will perform under certain situations well in advance of being in that situation. That's why we train, practice, experiment with new products, to know how they'll fit or not fit our normal work regimen. By example, I have a studio mic kit, and a production mic kit. Almost never do the two meet. One is for extremely controlled, studio use and the mics are far too fragile and expensive to be taking to most shoot situations, and then there are the shoot mics, which I'll occasionally use in the studio, with the 4051 and 4053 being the most common "go betweens." If you can only afford one mic, I'd likely go with an omni. My favorite low-cost omni right now is the AT 899. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

March 10th, 2006, 06:00 PM	#38
Joe Kras Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 54	Agree with going with the omni I'm probably closer to your level than DSE's or Ty's. I remember what it means to be spending a lot of time concentrating on a lot of different stuff (amateur talent, lack of enough crew, getting up to speed on a lot of skills concurrently, etc.). For this point in time, I think that you're better off going with an omni. I believe that not only will your life be (a bit) easier on a shoot, but that you'll end up with better audio than you otherwise would. You have too many things to be paying attention to to concentrate adequately on getting the talent to keep their mouths aligned with the axis of the mic. Once you have more experience and are more comfortable with the whole process, you may find that you want a cardioid lav, too. You'll know when.

March 7th, 2006, 05:13 AM	#36
Fischer Spooner Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 100	OK--I'll consider myself warned about the mic slipping around and the head rotating, but wouldn't the included windscreen (in the case of the AT831) be enough to handle normal winds?