Want Advice/Opinions: Next Set of Monitors

[Allan Black]

Put down your Dyson vacuum cleaner for a minute and try their Dyson headphones …

YouTube (Short URL)

YouTube (Short URL)

https://www.dyson.com/content/dam/dy...ser_Manual.pdf

[Christopher Young]

OMG... NFM... (Not For Me!)

Chris Young

[Allan Black]

Hah new direction Chris. BTW if you’re in the vicinity of Chatswood in Sydney there’s an interesting store which advertises that you can demo headphones etc. in their shop. They seem to have most brands there. https://www.minidisc.com.au/brand

Cheers.

[Christopher Young]

Interesting!

Victoria Ave. Try to avoid it like a plague. Though I do have a shoot coming up shortly at the Concourse in Chatswood, which is just off Victoria Ave. So who knows!

Chris Young

[Allan Black]

Chris, what’s interesting about that shop is you can audition many of their products while you’re there.

Opens another can of worms, but they have many headphones of all prices in stock.
Cheers.

[Robert Lane]

Back to the monitor stuff...

You guys will think I'm nuts, but I'm on to something here.

Like I mentioned earlier the funds needed to get the high-end nearfields have been annoyingly redirected to something else. Jonesing for **something better than iMac walkie-talkie speaker audio I decided to take a chance on the original idea, of using hi-fi equipment for mixing/edits.

A local shop here sells old-school stereo equipment that's been reconditioned and warrantied, often the class-A, high-line brands like NAD, Crestron, SAE etc. I just happened across a Denon receiver and a pair of Celestion tower speakers for imossibly low cost, together less than $120 US. I figured what the hell, for next to nothing I'll at least have some decent audio to listen to until I can order the IK MTM's. What's happened since is nothing short of amazing.

As you can see in the pics, I laid the speakers horizontally, something required since I couldn't find a quick and simple way to stand them upright behind the table at the proper height. That actually provides a natural reflection back up to the ear off the table, without creating any unusal imaging issues.

Right away I was blown away by the clean power from the Denon and how accurate the Celestions are across the spectrum. Amazing imaging without coloration, no hiss from internal power supplies and very, very clean, open sound.

Using my selection of "control songs" that I've used for decades to test monitors this rig actually passes all the tests. Highs are clear and not too bright - which is usually an issue for home-stereo speakers, and because the main drivers aren't large (4 or 5" inch) there's no booming low-end. In fact because it's a long cabinet there's actually plenty of LFE that's also clean and defined.

If anything I'm hearing nuances in these test tracks that I didn't hear at all with my Focal EVO 65's! Especially with electronica and orchestral music I'm just floored how accurate the output is - without typical hi-fi coloration.

So instead of investing $3K or more in nearfields I'm going to go further into this hi-fi path. I'll upgrade to a Yamaha 300w power amp and instead of going out the headphone jack on the iMac I'll get an IK Multimeida AXE I/O ONE interface and get the best audio-out to the RCA's into the Denon (soon the Yamaha). Maybe I'll upgrade the speakers to a set of B&W's but right now the Celestions are blowing me away with their response and accuracy.

(I've known of Celestion but never listened to any - ever, so I'm shocked how good these are. Another great example of British audio engineering.)

I don't recommend this path for everyone; I've had years of pro-level experience with every kind of audio setup there is for production purposes, so I've got a set of trained ears to sort out what's not-so-good for mixing audio for film BUT, this proves the theory: Yes, in fact getting natural, organic audio for mixing using high-quality hi-fi equipment is possible. And for a FRACTION of what a "good" nearfield setup would cost!

I'm staying the path and will report back to this thread as the equipment list changes/gets upgraded.

Wish you guys could hear this... maybe I'll setup a controlled recording - once I purchase another field recorder again for production.

[Robert Lane]

Tried to send all pics, wouldn't take...

[Robert Lane]

Now that the hi-fi concept has been confirmed I'm going further down the rabbit hole. Next steps:

This weekend the output from the iMac will be upgraded to USB-out to RCA via a super-simple Behringer UCA222.

In a few weeks I'll be replacing the Denon integrated amp with a Yamaha power amp M-45.

Somewhere in there I'll be upgrading the speaker drivers to high-quality units from this place:

https://www.parts-express.com/

And so the experiment continues...

[Robert Lane]

That Behringer UCA222... total crap!!! Very low output even compared to the analog-out from the iMac 3.5" stereo out and, noticeably less fidelity. Meh... what can you expect for less than $20!!

So it's back to another Audient iD4 MKII for the interface. Soon...

[Robert Lane]

This experiment has been a copmlete eye-opener, and after a test session today with a well respected local audio engineer I've decided to post an entirely different thread about all the tests I've done and the results.

Be prepared to be shocked - because I was and still am.

[Robert Lane]

I was going to post a full report about our testing and the results, but I'm already on page 4 about the whole thing, and it's just too much to put on a forum. It's more of a magazine article at this point and not appropriate for a place where people just want answers - quick. So here's the easy-read version of what we did and learned:

My friend brought over a handful of different speakers, both quality hi-fi and near-field, really good stuff for both. For the near-fields he brought a pair of HEDD, Focal, ADAM and JBL. For hi-fi B&W, Elac, Monitor Audio, Polk. More than enough to further test this theory of hi-fi vs. traditional near-fields for critical mixing.

We both blindfolded each other one at a time and ran test tracks we're both familiar with and rated each monitor from 1 to 10 based on: imaging, element separation (vocals from instrument/background etc), any noticeable distortion (port chuffing, high-frequency shrillness etc) LFE (low-frequency extension) and small-element disappearance (low-energy audible elements such as a background note, vocal or something else that often can't be heard from either a low-quality amplifier or speaker driver).

To further make the test "blind" we didn't tell the other whether or not we were setting up a near-field or a hi-fi speaker, thus making the test completely devoid of any preconceived expectations from the what were hearing.

The results floored both of us. The B&W's took top marks across the board, above everything else including the near-fields! Huh??!! Yep, that's what we both said. So we ran the test again. (Yes, this took all friggin' day!!)

Keep in mind the hi-fi speakers were connected to the Denon AVR-2000 integrated amp. (I haven't picked up the Yamaha M-45 yet.) And of course the near-fields had to rely on their own internal amps for power and delivery, so the test isn't strictly the quality of the speaker drivers and cabinets but their amps too! The near-fields were fed via an Audient ID4 MKII.

Here's the best part, the B&W 706 S3's sell for around $2,200 US new, and can be had on the used market for as little as $500-800 a pair in excellent condition. And a clean, high-current amp like the Denon (NAD, Carver, SAE and others are plentiful on the used market) is also pennies on the dollar compared to when they were new.

So basically you could have a very high-quality, accurate audio-monitoring setup for hundreds if not thousands less than using a traditional near-field setup.

There are other not-so-obvious benefits we learned. In ALL the near-fields we heard the dreaded "hiss" when idle. Of course it's extremely low (the HEDD's had the least amount) but it's still audible. The hi-fi speakers? Zero. And the reason why is obvious when you think about it: Distance.

We all want high-power, clean and precise output from our monitors. But to get all that audio goodness requires a lot of physical power from transformers and capacitors which create RF noise when powered. The more you turn up the volume the more magnetic RF energy they create - along with heat - which has to go somewhere.

Since near-fields have their power supplies built into the cabinets they're literally up-close and personal with the drivers and voice-coils they're powering. And while they're shielded there's only so much RF that shielding can reject, the rest gets picked up by the voice-coils and gets translated - you guess it, into audible hiss.

Hi-fi speakers and passive monitors have quite a bit of distance from the power supplies and drivers, so there's no RF energy for them to pick up thus, no hiss. Not unless the amp itself is noisy, but when you're talking about high-end hi-fi that's nearly non-existent. I can crank up this Denon to 100% without any audible noise going to the speakers. That's a clear sign of a well designed discrete circuit board and clean amplifier section. Nearly all high-current receivers and integrated amps will behave the same way, fantastic imaging, zero idle noise and LOTS of transient and constant RMS power going to the speakers.

(By the way the term "monitor" is just industry snobbery to make a distinction between home-stereo speakers and those specifically designed for audio pros. The truth is they're exactly the same damned thing, it's just glossy marketing to make you feel like you're getting something super-special.)

Now let's be clear: near-fields have their purpose and the ones that cost $1000 a copy and beyond are terrific units and do their job very well. Their primary selling point is that you don't need an external amp to power them and, many have "shaping tools" built into the cabinets to accommodate the various environments they'll get placed, such as distance from a wall, middle of a room, reducing reflections from a desk etc. Hi-fi components don't have any of these adjustments leaving the user to create a proper setup for their individual environment.

So if you're in need of an accurate, high-quality audio monitoring setup but don't have thousands of dollars to invest in specialized near or mid-field monitors, the good news is you don't have to. There's a lot of myth about using hi-fi speakers vs. professional monitors and this testing proved beyond any doubt that in fact you CAN use good quality components and get precisely what's required for mixing/editing and not break the bank.

Do your research, when possible get a listen to the various amps and speakers out there and if need be, hit me up and I'll do my best to steer you in the right direction.

Cheers to all.

[Dave Baker]

I haven't seen any audio reviews like this since I stopped buying Hi-Fi magazines way back. I stopped buying when reviewers got into which direction down the cable the signal should go to achieve the highest fidelity!

At the time I was running a Thorens TD150 deck with SME 3009 II S2 arm and Shure V15III HE cartridge, Sugden A48 amp and a Sugden R21 tuner, the shiny black and silver fronted ones with wooden cabinets, there was a Sony Dolby C cassette deck too, into Monitor Audio MA5 speakers.

I'd never heard of near field speakers before this thread, so I read it with interest. I highly value Allan's opinion too, he was a great help to me in the old Panasonic3CCDuser days.

I'm glad, relieved may be a better word, that you found HI-Fi speakers better for you. I've always believed good sound quality is good sound quality no matter what purpose it is used for and you have just underlined that for me. I hope you enjoy using them.

[Robert Lane]

Glad you got useful info from this.

For me the next step is more of a fun project than further testing since the original question has been answered succinctly.

What I'm going to do now is take the Celestion F2's I picked up and upgrade the drivers to higher-quality components.

The cabinet and porting is fantastic and they already sound great, but especially after hearing what the B&W's and others sound like I know I can get even more definition and clarity from this pair than the drivers shipped from Celestion.

I doubt I'll mess with the cross-overs; they've already been designed/tuned for the cabinet size and rear-firing port so messing with that could potentially mess up an already good sounding rig. So what I'm doing would be similar to taking a Honda Accord and replacing the stock motor with a race-tech BMW inline 6. hahaha... that's the best analogy I could come up with.

More on that when it happens.