What do you recommend changing in my audio system?

[Greg Miller]

Adriano,

Thanks for all the details. I apologize for mis-reading or mis-remembering what you said earlier about your speakers. It is more clear now.

I am not too familiar with the Bose brand of speakers. I think Bose's goal, in general, was to get "better than average" sound from "smaller than average" enclosures. Some of the early models were quite unusual. I have tried to find some information online about the small cubes that you have. What I am about to say is not from my own knowledge, it's just a summary of what I could find online, so forgive me if it's wrong. Maybe another forum member knows more details about them. And you'll see I have more questions for you.

Apparently the cubes are not full-range speakers. In particular they do not reproduce low frequencies ... they are perhaps good only as low as ~200Hz. (I still won't call them "tweeters" because 200Hz is below what we normally call "midrange." But since they're not full-range either, maybe it is best just to call them "cubes.") It seems that the cubes were part of an overall system that had its own Bose subwoofer (or perhaps I should say "woofer" without the "sub"). Both output channels of the stereo amplifier were connected to the Bose woofer. The woofer cabinet contained crossover wiring, which sent the low frequencies to a larger driver in the woofer cabinet; it sent the higher frequencies (above ~200Hz) to the two cubes. Without the special Bose woofer, the cubes would not sound correct on their own.

So (again remembering that this might not be the correct info for your particular speakers) I need to ask specifically: Is this the kind of system you have? Is that a Bose woofer that I see sitting on the shelf? And are your cubes connected directly to your amplifier, or are they connected directly to the Bose woofer (if that is what you have)?

I think before saying much more about speakers, it's important to understand the above details.

Again I apologize for my confusion, and thanks for your patience with all these questions.

[Adriano Moroni]

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

So (again remembering that this might not be the correct info for your particular speakers) I need to ask specifically: Is this the kind of system you have? Is that a Bose woofer that I see sitting on the shelf? And are your cubes connected directly to your amplifier, or are they connected directly to the Bose woofer (if that is what you have)?

Yes, you are right. The two small Bose cubes were part of a audio system. In fact there was also a subwoofer. I don't remember if there was also a central speaker, but I don't think it. But over time they broke and I replaced them with other speakers. However, only high frequencies come out of the 2 cubes. That woofer you see on the shelf is a Bose woofer but it is broken and now I use the Yamaha you see on the ground. In the photo that I posted in the first post there are arrows only on the speakers that I am using now. The Bose cubes are connected directly to my amplifier.

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

Again I apologize for my confusion, and thanks for your patience with all these questions.

I'm sorry if I only have 2 ears because I wish I had 4 ears to hear you better. jejejeeje I thank you!

[Greg Miller]

Thank you for providing the additional info about your system! Now I understand even more.

To talk more about the history of the Bose company. Some of their early speakers used only fairly small drivers. Normally these would not produce very strong bass. The lower frequencies would "roll off" (get weaker as the frequency got lower) as one would expect with those small drivers. So Bose included special electronics, which boosted the bass in a way just the opposite of the drivers' rolloff. That somewhat restored the bass, although it introduced other problems.

In a way your original cube system was a bit better, because at least it admitted the need for a real woofer. But the question is this: exactly how did the electronics in the woofer affect the signal fed to the cubes? If you don't know that, and don't have a proper equalizer (made by someone other than Bose) then the new system (the cubes plus your new woofer) will never have the correct frequency response. So, when you listen to a mix to evaluate it, what you hear will be different from what other people (with more proper speakers) will hear.

Right now, you have a little bit of bass coming from the cubes (although at a fairly soft level). You have more bass coming from the sub in the corner. And more coming from the center speaker. Are all those things in phase? (I would not be surprised if the center speaker is out of phase with the others!) Do they have a correct frequency response? If all this stuff isn't correct, it could be part of the reason your system sounds muddy.

Now that I know all these details, I do agree with your original thought. If you want to make any changes to your system, the Bose cubes would be a good place to improve! I am an old-school guy myself. I tend to like JBLs for mixing & listening. JBL makes a lot of professional speakers for theatre and music performance use, so I trust their smaller monitor speakers. I think a lot of albums and a lot of movies were mixed using JBL monitors ... they are professional speakers. I am *not* telling you to buy JBL, but I definitely would avoid "home" brands like Bose. Also, I know that speaker prices vary widely depending on the country where they're made and the country where they're bought. So I don't know what would be a good price/performance choice for you. I'm sure some other forum members with European experience can give you better advice than I could.

Now, I hope I won't bore you, but I'll come back to the detail of speaker location. When you watched a movie in a big conventional theatre, did you think about the speaker location? You might already know that the speakers are *behind* the screen. Professional projection screens are perforated, so the sound can come through the thousands of holes to reach the audience. The speakers are neither below the screen nor above it. They are roughly the middle of the screen height. So, again, for your mixing/listening room, I'm going to suggest that you try to position these new, better speakers so they are roughly the middle of the height of your video screen ... about the same height as your ears. (Yes, I see your photo, you have a beautiful huge screen. And I like the way you have connected the shelf units together to get more useful space. I know what I suggest won't be simple. I can only say honestly that I think it will let you hear your new speakers as they should be heard.)

Then for the time being turn off the center speaker. And make sure the subwoofer (in the corner) is not too loud. I think you will be much happier with your new sound!

[Patrick Tracy]

My earlier suggestions were a bit generic because I wasn't considering the specific equipment you had. Some of the Bose speakers of the type you seem to have were adequate for casual listening, but I wouldn't rely on them to make important decisions about sound quality. Given that, I do suggest replacing them. But I strongly recommend getting matched speakers, at least the front three. Many manufacturers make specific center channel speakers that go with speakers they make for left/right, different but compatible. The speakers need to have matching tonal qualities, and it's helpful if the sensitivity specifications are similar (so they play at about the same volume).

Attached photos are of my speakers. My rear speakers are currently not matched to the front, but I plan to replace them fairly soon to have a complete matched set (aside from the subwoofer).

[Adriano Moroni]

Oopssss, I was convinced and was about to buy 2 Elac DEBUT 2.0 B6.2. At this point I stop and I don't know what to do anymore. My center speaker is a JBL. In my humble opinion I don't think there are 2 JBL speakers that sound as good as the 2 Elac DEBUT 2.0 B6.2 with the same price. Maybe I'm wrong.

In short, however, I understand that if I were to buy 2 good front speakers, I have to disable the front channel and as Greg says, I hope I can also make the subwoofer work in an attenuated way, even if it is Yamaha.

Now I just have a little doubt. I remember that you recommended the Elac DEBUT 2.0 B6.2 the sound is more enveloping, but.... if the subwoofer works well, perhaps it is better that I buy the Elac Debut b5.2 because I have read that it provides better quality of the mid tones and high tones . Maybe it's better for the narrative voice or is this insignificant?
Thanks again for your availability.

[Patrick Tracy]

Matching the sub is not as important as matching the center channel speaker to the main pair. It's more about placement and level setting (and perhaps polarity and delay).

I think going without the center channel is a reasonable option. A basic 2.1 system with good speakers is more useful than a 5.1 system with mediocre speakers.

[Adriano Moroni]

I think I will get 4.1 because I will not disable the rear speakers.

[Greg Miller]

I'm not disagreeing with you. But again I'm a bit confused ...

In post #10 you said you mix in stereo only. But in post #6 you said the dialog is always isolated to the center speaker.

If you are mixing in stereo, there is no actual center channel to your mix, just left and right. So what do you mean by the word "isolated" in post #6?

And also, if you mix in stereo only, why do you need two rear speakers?

[Adriano Moroni]

Please, let's finish it here. I don't want to steal your precious time. My bad English doesn't allow me to explain myself well and I'm also too poor in my audio knowledge.

However, having said that, I will answer your questions.
In post 6 I said that currently I have the narrated voice in the central speaker and always isolated from the music. But then checking more closely, I realized that in addition to the voice coming out powerfully, some music also came out. Onnkyo's configuration is AllCH Stereo.
When in post 10 I replied: "Stereo only", but I was referring to the AllCH Stereo and not the Surround. I thought 5.1 was Surround.
Maybe your word "mixing" confused me because I didn't understand the word well in English. I am saddened by this.

However, if I have to be honest, I don't know and can't know how enveloping the audio will be with the two new and better speakers using them in Stereo. I like to be surrounded by voice and music to obtain a better presence effect in the scene. I also like to listen to some light live sound or music in the back. So I don't know if I'll be satisfied with just Stereo.
In a few days, when I have the 2 new speakers, I will do some tests by changing the various listening options in Onkyo: AllCH Stereo, Stereo, Full Mono, Theater, etc. etc.

Honestly, I don't even know what I can listen to if I leave the central channel active. For me any option will be a new thing, when I have the 2 new speakers.
I'll see what to do.
Now I just have to wait and check.
I apologize and I am enormously ashamed because perhaps I cannot make myself understood.

[Greg Miller]

Adriano,

I'm certainly sorry if this has become an unhappy experience. You have nothing to be ashamed about. Your English is exceptionally good! If you hadn't said so, it would be hard to guess that English is a second language. Learning languages has always been very difficult for me, so that I almost couldn't graduate from college. I admire your ability!

Language is not always accurate. Words with old meanings are now being used with multiple audio meanings. "Mixed" is a good example. I asked questions only so I could understand the process you are using. The questions did *not* criticize your language at all.

My time is not precious. If it would be helpful, I would be glad to talk about this more, at any time that you want to. But I do not want to cause you any frustration. Besides, you've made a choice so you will be able to observe what happens.

If Google is correct, then I want to say "Alla prossima!"
Greg

[Adriano Moroni]

Good morning,
the new speakers will arrive in two days and I would like to ask a question about the connection to the Onkyo amplifier. When I plug the 2 cables of one speaker to L (red and black- look at the pic), is L the left of the person watching the TV or the left of the TV?

Then .... I will not use the central channel but out of curiosity:
If I wanted to do a test and have the voice come out of the central speaker, which Menu option should I choose in my Onkyo amplifier? Maybe should I choose "Surround"? Is this the only way I can get the narrative voice to come out of the central speaker?
Thank you.

[Rick Reineke]

LEFT is looking at the TV screen (or the front of the LCR speaker cabinets).
If you want dialog only in the center speaker, it would need to be mixed in 5:1 with the voice assigned to the center.only. What DAW (or video NLE) do you use for mixing audio?
If want to listen to a stereo mix on only the center speaker, you would have to disconnect the LCR speakers cables and re-connect the L-R speaker cables to the center speaker. Leaving the L-R speakers disconnected. No easy way that I am aware of with the consumer amp. Recording studios typically have six discreet channel feeds and power amp channels (or 5 powered speakers and a sub) woofer for mixing. The 5:1 mix is then encoded along with the video or encoded separately and 'muxed' in after the video picture file is rendered.

[Adriano Moroni]

Originally Posted by Rick Reineke

LEFT is looking at the TV screen (or the front of the LCR speaker cabinets).
If you want dialog only in the center speaker, it would need to be mixed in 5:1 with the voice assigned to the center.only. What DAW (or video NLE) do you use for mixing audio?

I use Edius for video editing. I can manage audio channels without problem.
I already knew that I need 5.1 option with the voice assigned to the center only but what I don't understand which Menu do I have to choose in my Onkyo TX-NR545. Cables are ON on the read of it, but its options are: options in Onkyo: AllCH Stereo, Stereo, Full Mono, Theater, Pure voice, etc. etc. I don't see 5.1.

[Patrick Tracy]

AllCh Stereo spreads a 2-channel stereo input across all the speakers. I would not use this.

Direct takes whatever format is given and puts it in the same number of speakers (2 speakers for stereo input, 5 plus the sub for 5.1 channel audio input). I would use this to check stereo mixes on a stereo system.

Dolby Surround "up-mixes" stereo signals to 5.1. This is what I would use to check my stereo mixes on a surround system.

[Adriano Moroni]

Are you telling me I should use "Surround" to get the voice out of the central channel? But should I choose Surround on Onkyo even if I have a file worked with Edius in Stereo?