Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?

Brian Drysdale · November 25th, 2020, 02:00 AM

Just wait until you're editing the film before getting deeply involved in the music, Things can change before then.

Ryan Elder · November 25th, 2020, 02:42 AM

Oh okay, but I thought that this would also help get more people on board, and investors too, if I had everything planned out, down to the music as well.

Brian Drysdale · November 25th, 2020, 03:21 AM

Investors aren't interested in the music, they want to know who's acting in the film, not the composer.

Getting a cast is more important, not the music.

Ryan Elder · November 25th, 2020, 02:36 PM

Sure, I can do that, and not concentrate on the music much for now. But the composer told me he would prefer demo tracks actually, to get a better idea of what I want, unless the ones I could think of before, are too different from each other

Ryan Elder · December 16th, 2020, 08:23 PM

I have a question about the choice of synthesizer as well. For some of the soundtrack I figure a synthesizer will be cheaper to save on budget, but also because there are some synth sounds I want.

But the composer wants to use samples of real instruments for everything though, and he thinks that synthesizers are thing of the past, when no one could get samples. Does he have a point, and they are dated?

Pete Cofrancesco · December 16th, 2020, 09:05 PM

Ryan Elder · December 17th, 2020, 12:26 AM

Oh okay thanks. I don't necessarily want the synth sounds to sound 80s, but maybe more modern instead. But maybe since there are samples of every instrument now, maybe the synth is pointless for a lot of type of sounds now?

Oh I also decided not to go with the harmonica based on the advice posted here before. Thanks.

Brian Drysdale · December 17th, 2020, 02:05 AM

I wouldn't say any instrument goes out of date, it's how you use them that matters. Certainly there were a lot of synth bands during the 1980s and some films such as "Blade Runner" and "Midnight Express" used electronic music at that time.

However, films continue to use electronic music.

https://plus.pointblankmusicschool.c...c-film-scores/

https://www.factmag.com/2017/10/20/h...049-interview/

It's really comes down to how appropriate electronic music or any instrumentation is for your film,

Paul R Johnson · December 17th, 2020, 02:34 AM

I get so exasperated, in my band the keyboard player uses a Kong M1. It’s old and has a few great sounds but also has lots of awful ones. He has a working spare and one for parts. He is computer phobic. I on the other hand have a big pile of old keyboards and ALL are now in my computer system. I used to have a big patch pay where I could connect the synths and samplers. My new studio does not need a patch bay as everything I want is in the machine! Ryan. You are now dictating which synths your music ‘expert’ uses? Would you go into hospital for a procedure and tell the surgeon the make and model of his equipment. You can point him to the type of stitches you’d like, or tell him you don’t mind a big scar, and make sure he knows it is your right arm that has to come off, but you don’t tell him how to choose his tool!

Sometimes Ryan your micromanagement gets way out of control. Do you really want potential collaborators to have this impression of you? PS you never choose a musical instrument on cost, only on sound. The only hardware synth in my studio is a Kong Triton because there are two sounds in it I like and I have not got these available in software. Roland and Kong have excellent software and if you don’t need the knobs and keys there is no reason to find a synth.

It is like buying a 90s three machine edit suite because you want to mix in an edit recorded on digibeta, but have one working playback machine for the archive footage. You’d digitise the material and edit in you computer. It does it quicker and better. Same with old synths. Manually turn that knob at 1:32 every time or use software and let the DAW turn the knob for you?

Leave musical choices to musicians for goodness sake.

Ryan Elder · December 17th, 2020, 11:23 AM

Oh okay. Yes the synthesizer I am talking about is all on a computer, there are no manual knobs I don't think, the way he has it set up. It's all knobs on a computer.

Paul R Johnson · December 17th, 2020, 12:57 PM

There is synthesis and there is sampling - then each can be treated to make the real different and the unreal different too - it makes NO difference. Clearly, you pick a sound. I mentioned before, on my cubase system with the Kontakt installation, I select something like flute as a main heading and up come hundreds of flute sounds - some will be orchestral flute sounds and be indistinguishable from something I could put a microphone on, or they might be whispy, layered, evolving synthesised flute sounds? Who cares - you go through 200 flute sounds and pick the most appropriate one - why does it matter how it was constructed? My most realistic piano sound is synthesised and sounds more real than the sampled ones I also have. Your composer has real instruments in mind when it sounds like you have artificial sounds in mind. Music seems something you can't do yourself, or even communicate properly - so satisfy yourself with giving your composer a steer, then letting him get on with it, and you say yes or no.

Ryan Elder · December 17th, 2020, 02:20 PM

Oh okay. Sure I can do that. Actually when it comes to flutes, since I wanted a flute like this at 1:15 into this example:

The flute has a lot overblowing I guess you could call it. But is it possible to fake overblowing with a synthesizer, and no real samples of any? My composer is not sure so far, as he hasn't tried it with a synthesizer but is possible?

Paul R Johnson · December 17th, 2020, 02:59 PM

I have about 30 of those before editing them. Some are synthesised some are samples, but I still think you and your composer simply do not have any experience of 'playing' these things.

If you have, for example, a sample library for PLAYING, not SOUND EFFECTS, then you get the option in some packages of controlling the sound from just about sounding - through flutters and stutters, to a continuous note, then that note can be a round robin - as in it plays as long as you hold the Bb or whatever key down. Or it will be a single recorded sample that gets pitch shifted or time shifted, or it will be all these things, presented in a playable manner. Some packages just require you to play with different velocities, others require you to also control expression, modulation and volume - AND - play at the same time, or do it in layers. You keep talking like a sample of a gun going off bang. This NOT what musical sampling is. You do not need to know how to record them, you need to learn how to play them.

Your breathy flute should give your composer 30 seconds worth of thinking, then probably half an hour of trying and auditioning sounds. This is how it is done. As I'm saying till I am blue in the face, it does not matter whatsoever if the generation of the sound is synthesised or sampled - totally irrelevant. You pick the sound by auditioning to get a short list, then you add the effects and treatment. Even more possible with that sound is to borrow a damn flute and record it. No music skill required - it's monophonic, so a bad musician could generate a great sound by total luck. You are making a huge mountain where the ground is flat.

Frankly, your composer sounds like he is totally at sea too. The prospects are not good if this is causing such grief at the planning stage. If the pair of you really are so green in the music technology stakes, send me the damn track when he's recorded without the flute and I will play it for you, free of charge - just give me a credit for flute - Paul Johnson, I've never had a credit for flute before!

Honestly Ryan, this is so, so simple - it really is. It's an overblow chatter with reverb. The kind of thing beginner flautists do accidentally, when trying to play very quietly.

Ryan Elder · December 17th, 2020, 03:04 PM

Oh okay, well I can just try to get a bass flute or similar sounding flute from somewhere and do that. But would it match the rest of the flute we use then that is suppose to be played well, or will it sound like it is coming from two completely different sources in the sound then? Will it be able to blend with the good flute playing in the samples?

Pete Cofrancesco · December 17th, 2020, 04:33 PM

Since you're so fond of those movies you should forget the synth and flute. What you need is an organ and a good BANJO!

Ryan you're ridiculous but that's why we love you.

November 25th, 2020, 02:00 AM	#121
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Just wait until you're editing the film before getting deeply involved in the music, Things can change before then.

November 25th, 2020, 02:42 AM	#122
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Oh okay, but I thought that this would also help get more people on board, and investors too, if I had everything planned out, down to the music as well.

November 25th, 2020, 03:21 AM	#123
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Investors aren't interested in the music, they want to know who's acting in the film, not the composer. Getting a cast is more important, not the music.

November 25th, 2020, 02:36 PM	#124
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Sure, I can do that, and not concentrate on the music much for now. But the composer told me he would prefer demo tracks actually, to get a better idea of what I want, unless the ones I could think of before, are too different from each other

December 16th, 2020, 08:23 PM	#125
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? I have a question about the choice of synthesizer as well. For some of the soundtrack I figure a synthesizer will be cheaper to save on budget, but also because there are some synth sounds I want. But the composer wants to use samples of real instruments for everything though, and he thinks that synthesizers are thing of the past, when no one could get samples. Does he have a point, and they are dated?

December 16th, 2020, 09:05 PM	#126
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? 80s Synth Riffs - YouTube

December 17th, 2020, 12:26 AM	#127
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Oh okay thanks. I don't necessarily want the synth sounds to sound 80s, but maybe more modern instead. But maybe since there are samples of every instrument now, maybe the synth is pointless for a lot of type of sounds now? Oh I also decided not to go with the harmonica based on the advice posted here before. Thanks.

December 17th, 2020, 02:05 AM	#128
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? I wouldn't say any instrument goes out of date, it's how you use them that matters. Certainly there were a lot of synth bands during the 1980s and some films such as "Blade Runner" and "Midnight Express" used electronic music at that time. However, films continue to use electronic music. https://plus.pointblankmusicschool.c...c-film-scores/ https://www.factmag.com/2017/10/20/h...049-interview/ It's really comes down to how appropriate electronic music or any instrumentation is for your film,

December 17th, 2020, 02:34 AM	#129
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? I get so exasperated, in my band the keyboard player uses a Kong M1. It’s old and has a few great sounds but also has lots of awful ones. He has a working spare and one for parts. He is computer phobic. I on the other hand have a big pile of old keyboards and ALL are now in my computer system. I used to have a big patch pay where I could connect the synths and samplers. My new studio does not need a patch bay as everything I want is in the machine! Ryan. You are now dictating which synths your music ‘expert’ uses? Would you go into hospital for a procedure and tell the surgeon the make and model of his equipment. You can point him to the type of stitches you’d like, or tell him you don’t mind a big scar, and make sure he knows it is your right arm that has to come off, but you don’t tell him how to choose his tool! Sometimes Ryan your micromanagement gets way out of control. Do you really want potential collaborators to have this impression of you? PS you never choose a musical instrument on cost, only on sound. The only hardware synth in my studio is a Kong Triton because there are two sounds in it I like and I have not got these available in software. Roland and Kong have excellent software and if you don’t need the knobs and keys there is no reason to find a synth. It is like buying a 90s three machine edit suite because you want to mix in an edit recorded on digibeta, but have one working playback machine for the archive footage. You’d digitise the material and edit in you computer. It does it quicker and better. Same with old synths. Manually turn that knob at 1:32 every time or use software and let the DAW turn the knob for you? Leave musical choices to musicians for goodness sake.

December 17th, 2020, 11:23 AM	#130
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Oh okay. Yes the synthesizer I am talking about is all on a computer, there are no manual knobs I don't think, the way he has it set up. It's all knobs on a computer.

December 17th, 2020, 12:57 PM	#131
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? There is synthesis and there is sampling - then each can be treated to make the real different and the unreal different too - it makes NO difference. Clearly, you pick a sound. I mentioned before, on my cubase system with the Kontakt installation, I select something like flute as a main heading and up come hundreds of flute sounds - some will be orchestral flute sounds and be indistinguishable from something I could put a microphone on, or they might be whispy, layered, evolving synthesised flute sounds? Who cares - you go through 200 flute sounds and pick the most appropriate one - why does it matter how it was constructed? My most realistic piano sound is synthesised and sounds more real than the sampled ones I also have. Your composer has real instruments in mind when it sounds like you have artificial sounds in mind. Music seems something you can't do yourself, or even communicate properly - so satisfy yourself with giving your composer a steer, then letting him get on with it, and you say yes or no.

December 17th, 2020, 02:20 PM	#132
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Oh okay. Sure I can do that. Actually when it comes to flutes, since I wanted a flute like this at 1:15 into this example: Scorpio Takes the Bait - YouTube The flute has a lot overblowing I guess you could call it. But is it possible to fake overblowing with a synthesizer, and no real samples of any? My composer is not sure so far, as he hasn't tried it with a synthesizer but is possible?

December 17th, 2020, 02:59 PM	#133
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? I have about 30 of those before editing them. Some are synthesised some are samples, but I still think you and your composer simply do not have any experience of 'playing' these things. If you have, for example, a sample library for PLAYING, not SOUND EFFECTS, then you get the option in some packages of controlling the sound from just about sounding - through flutters and stutters, to a continuous note, then that note can be a round robin - as in it plays as long as you hold the Bb or whatever key down. Or it will be a single recorded sample that gets pitch shifted or time shifted, or it will be all these things, presented in a playable manner. Some packages just require you to play with different velocities, others require you to also control expression, modulation and volume - AND - play at the same time, or do it in layers. You keep talking like a sample of a gun going off bang. This NOT what musical sampling is. You do not need to know how to record them, you need to learn how to play them. Your breathy flute should give your composer 30 seconds worth of thinking, then probably half an hour of trying and auditioning sounds. This is how it is done. As I'm saying till I am blue in the face, it does not matter whatsoever if the generation of the sound is synthesised or sampled - totally irrelevant. You pick the sound by auditioning to get a short list, then you add the effects and treatment. Even more possible with that sound is to borrow a damn flute and record it. No music skill required - it's monophonic, so a bad musician could generate a great sound by total luck. You are making a huge mountain where the ground is flat. Frankly, your composer sounds like he is totally at sea too. The prospects are not good if this is causing such grief at the planning stage. If the pair of you really are so green in the music technology stakes, send me the damn track when he's recorded without the flute and I will play it for you, free of charge - just give me a credit for flute - Paul Johnson, I've never had a credit for flute before! Honestly Ryan, this is so, so simple - it really is. It's an overblow chatter with reverb. The kind of thing beginner flautists do accidentally, when trying to play very quietly.

December 17th, 2020, 03:04 PM	#134
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Oh okay, well I can just try to get a bass flute or similar sounding flute from somewhere and do that. But would it match the rest of the flute we use then that is suppose to be played well, or will it sound like it is coming from two completely different sources in the sound then? Will it be able to blend with the good flute playing in the samples?

December 17th, 2020, 04:33 PM	#135
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Since you're so fond of those movies you should forget the synth and flute. What you need is an organ and a good BANJO! Sabata vs Banjo - YouTube Ryan you're ridiculous but that's why we love you.