Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay thanks. I had an audio mixer do the audio editing and mixing. Perhaps I could get someone else next time for it then.

As for the music, I too felt it was too positive sounding at the end and felt it didn't fit. However, the choice to have no music as they went up the stairs was my choice though, because I wanted to emphasize how quiet they were trying to be, to not be heard. Is that bad, to not have music during a scene where characters are trying to not make sound?

But I also felt that the music was too positive, before I got other people's comments on it. So that is why I thought perhaps I should have more of an active roll in the music process with the composer for future projects, rather than just leave them to it, and take whatever they give me, whatever that may be. Wouldn't that be a logical way to go, based on past experience?

[Brian Drysdale]

You keep asking if things are bad, they're only bad if they don't work. A number of films have very little music, only sound effects.

Deliverance: Biggest River - YouTube

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, but I thought that the music in that short film example of mine, that the music didn't work though. But as far as choosing to have no music in some scenes, well Paul thought it was a strange to have no music in the one section, so would others think so then?

[Greg Miller]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Well I was told to just describe what I want in words to the composer, the feeling I want, and to leave them to it. Doesn't that mean free reign on what to do, after I tell them what I want? However, if I have misinterpreted the advice in anyway, then I apologize. I am greatful for the advice. I have followed some of it so far for sure.

If you describe what you want to the composer, I wouldn't say that's giving him free reign. That's allowing him to use his expertise and creativity within the guidelines you have set.

From www.collinsdictionary.com
Behind one's back definition: without one's knowledge ; secretly or deceitfully

From www.thefreedictionary.com
"Behind someone's back": without someone's knowledge; secret from someone. The phrase typically suggests wrongdoing or deceit.

Ryan, I challenge you specifically to find a quote where someone said the composer should work "behind your back." Do you really think someone told you to have the composer work without your knowledge, secretly or deceitfully, with some element of wrongdoing? If that's how you interpret the advice then you are really paranoid. Otherwise (more likely IMHO) you are misquoting and twisting people's words in order to reject our advice and support your own way of doing things.

[Ryan Elder]

Sorry I don't mean to twist people's words. Behind the back was my term, but what I meant was, I would have them do what they do without checking up on it at all, if that is what the advice was.

I could describe what I want to the composer, it's just that when I did before, I would end up getting something back that was very different from what I was thinking. So I feel I have to be much more specific in my descriptions therefore, so I do not get something back that is too different and at the risk that it will not work as well.

[Paul R Johnson]

Right, so you are saying what you want is creative people, but they can only be creative with your input?

[Brian Drysdale]

That happens to many directors because they're dealing with something that they can't completely control. It may be the reason why only a small number of composers get to do major feature films.

[Ryan Elder]

Well I just want to be a part of the creativity more so and offer some of what I would like. That way, I know what's going on, rather than be surprised later if I do not make myself a part of the process. What I could do is show the composer example tracks of I want and then they can give me samples of what they come up with and I pick the best sample, for him to make the rest out of... But that's just an idea. I just don't want the music to be out of place or not work like before and not sure how else to do it, without having more specific requests.

[Paul R Johnson]

So you want them to create the music, then when you don't like it, start again with another then another? So you want them to do three times the work for one fee? get real Ryan. You talk about doing it like the pros - then come up with this. What you are missing is trust. You find a composer with ideas, then you let them run. If you really want appropriate music you need to give them the finished edit, or at least a time locked one, then they can do their best work. If you withhold this, or get them to do the work only, then constant revisions make it tiresome to do - and your input will drive them mad. Creative people respond very badly to less creative people interfering. Why engage somebody then remove their autonomy? Frankly - in the movie, events, theatre and entertainment business - every single department tends to work on it's own - with guidance but whenever a Director oversteps the mark and over-directs, the product suffers. Let the people do their job. You're worrying about specific instruments, when clearly your input would have been better placed sorting the sound so it's less distracting, and if you couldn't notice the dialogue vanishing behind the music, then maybe your judgement in audio matters needs to adjustment. If you get your bass flute, who decides how loud the music is?

[Ryan Elder]

Well this is why I wanted to give the composer very specific ideas and specific example tracks and sounds from the tracks. That way, the music I feel could turn out better in a much shorter amount of time. But it was said before that that's micromanaging. So I am not sure where to draw the line between being specific in example tracks and sounds, vs. trusting them to come up with something that fits, without knowing what they will actually come up with.

As for who decides how loud the music is, that would be up to the audio mixer, not the composer, wouldn't it be?

[Brian Drysdale]

In the end, it depends on how good and talented your composer is.

For someone who has already made films, I'm surprised you're asking the music levels question.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh well I feel I didn't invest enough in the music area before on past projects and wanted to invest more in it.

[Paul R Johnson]

The snag seems to be Ryan that you never notice things until it's pointed out, then it's a surprise and you will sort it next time - but ask yourself why you didn't notice the dialogue was hiding behind the over loud music? You didn't spot the change in the room noise (which oddly was considerable) was it the air conditioning? The audio wasn't recorded very cleanly?

I wonder if you have the feel for what the music is doing? You asked about the climb up the stairs with the bats. You wanted it silent. That's a valid point. So not having music can be a dramatic point - but silence is never silent. You needed at that point absolute silence - a silence so silent we sit up and notice, interspersed with perhaps just little bits of sound - so maybe we needed a footstep squeaking on the turn, or the sound of the bat catching the wall, and the shot of the woman hiding around the corner - maybe we needed to hear her being silent - as in her breathing, her trying too be quiet. It didn't sound right - so what was your directorial purpose? What should we have heard or not heard, because it just sounded like people going upstairs and there wasn't the tension there should have been - personally that would have been a music cue for me, not silence. However the cue would have been very, very quiet - a subliminal awkwardness and breath holding moment. I didn't;t understand the music at the disturbing end scene at all - I personally don't think it fitted at all. Did it have a brief to the composer - as in write me music that is .................?

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, what do you mean did it have a brief to the composer?

As for the sound mix, well the sound mixer I hired worked on it while I wasn't there in his own studio. I noticed the finished product when he was done, but I didn't want to have to pay him to redo all the things. I was already going over the audio budget I had for the mix. What should I do next time to avoid having to pay more if there are things like that wrong with the sound mix? I did notice the abrubt change in the room noise. It was a computer mainframe in the next room, we were not allowed to turn off while shooting unfortunetly. The location was an emergency switch, since the first location became unavailable that was already planned. But I didn't have to time to get a new location other than this one. However, as for the change in room noise, I assume it's one when it goes from one scene to another? I left the audio mixing to the post sound mixer, since he knows about those things more than me.

And the reason why the music didn't fit at the end scene at all, was because the composer worked on it without me being there either, and I didn't get it till after. The music was not the type of music I described and thought I should be more specific for next time. So what do I do instead then, in that case, to avoid that from happening?

Should I work more closer to the sound mixer and composer, next time, and tell them I want the music less loud here, or the room noise, not so abrupt in change here, etc? But as for the music not fitting, that is what I meant when I said in past projects the music did not fit at all. So how do I get the music that fits, without having to be too specific and therefore micromanaging the composer?

[Brian Drysdale]

I'm surprised that you weren't there for the sound mix.

Didn't the composer have a copy of the film that they could work to for their timings?

You should be aware of the sound requirements for the final mix, Have all the spot effects and room atmos in the appropriate tracks. It's easy to do these days, Walter Murch uses Premiere Pro, so you've got the same tools.