Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?

[Brian Drysdale]

If your music is working properly the audience may not have an opinion on the music, they may only be aware of it if it's distracting.

An example of a film completely changing the music after a viewing is "Chinatown" , but it wasn't the result of the audience as such, just one highly experienced musician in the industry, who told Polanski that the original music was killing the film.

Robert Even then hired Jerry Goldsmith to compose a new score.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, that's interesting. What if I asked the composer for his opinion on my example tracks, would that be enough to know if the example tracks work with the movie or not, or should I get more people's opinions other than the composers?

[Brian Drysdale]

You can use test screenings, in which the film as whole is tested to see if they understand and emote with it. Just doing it for the music alone is a waste of time., it has to be part of the whole.

However, you'll probably get differing opinions, so the director has to decide.,

[Paul R Johnson]

Do you trust your composer's opinion on the music, or don't you? Can he write music that works? It sounds like you have somebody who is either immune to your constant interference, guidance, advice, criticism or doesn't care.

You speak of your composer as if you don't trust him all the time. You think you know best, so why even have him work on it if you don't trust his judgement? I think most decent composers would find working like this impossible.

I n' remember if I mentioned it, but I had a new client just before Christmas and I fired him. He rejected advice, he didn't listen and kept moving the goalposts - so despite it being a ten week project, I knew I'd never get to the end and the end result would be compromised by his inability to set proper goals that we could achieve. I wished him luck, but told him I dirdn't think I'd be able to do his project. He tried to back track saying that he'd do this and that, but I stuck to my guns and turned work away, in this covid work starved year. If he asked my advice, requested costings and then rejected everything with really unsound reasons, I can't work like that.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Do you trust your composer's opinion on the music, or don't you? Can he write music that works? It sounds like you have somebody who is either immune to your constant interference, guidance, advice, criticism or doesn't care.

You speak of your composer as if you don't trust him all the time. You think you know best, so why even have him work on it if you don't trust his judgement? I think most decent composers would find working like this impossible.

I wouldn't be surprise the composer is working on trade for services or some sort on non monetary compensation. Can you really imagine a legit composer taking this project and putting up with all this? The client you described sounds like someone else we know.

[Greg Miller]

I think Ryan would like to hum a tune, and tell the composer "Put that down on paper and have this instrument play it," then play him a clip of some given instrument (which Ryan cannot accurately identify/name). Maybe Ryan doesn't see what we call "composing" as a separate skill set, he's just interested in a transcriptionist/keyboardist to bring his (Ryan's) preconceived ideas to fruition.

I think we see a composer as being like an architect. We say "design me a palatial 3-bedroom house."

Ryan seems to see him as being the draftsman and/or carpenter. Ryan says "move this wall ... no, a bit more to the left ... no, make it like the wall I saw in someone else's house ... but stucco, not brick" and expects him eventually to pound the nails (i.e. play the keyboard).

[Paul R Johnson]

The client you described sounds like someone else we know.

I actually missed that, but you're right. He was a really nice guy, but his lofty aims were all just problematic.

The only thing we can tell Ryan to do is stop even thinking about music now. Shoot the movie, do the edit - then do the music. It's been months/years so far, so there is clearly no hurry - if it ever gets made at all.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh well, it's just I am also storyboarding the script, but when I storyboard I feel that knowing the music beforehand really helps to know how the scene will be shot and cut since I know the tone and style of the scenes more, if I know the music.

I don't need music for every sequence of course, but for the ones that do have music, it really helps the storyboarding and shooting for the edit, if I know what the music is going to be. Even when I direct the acting, if I know the music beforehand, I feel that could help my directing of it.

Plus I am trying to budget everything out. If I know the instrument sounds beforehand, at the pre-production stage, then I know how much it would cost in the budget to by those samples. I was mostly doing this now, because of budget rather than spending an unknown amount of money later.

[Brian Drysdale]

That method probably works if you're doing animation or a music video, but things change so much on a live action feature film and you don't have the level of control needed to apply it on your budget and shooting schedule. All sorts of issues come and hit you, even when you have the resources.

Watch François Truffaut's "La Nuit américaine" "Day for Night" and you have a flavour of it.

Day for Night (1973) - What is a Director? Scene (2/10) | Movieclips - YouTube

You don't need to know the instruments before hand when doing the budget, just make a working assumption that you may need to purchase X number of samples in the music budget. If you don't need them in end the you can spend the money on something else, which you under budgeted.

When writing on one short film I used to listen to some pieces of music, during the editing we used them as temp tracks where they worked excellently. The composer watched the film once with the temp tracks, I gave him a copy without any music tracks, he came up with some suggestions.

I listened to them, then had a think on the way back home, one was an ear worm, so I phoned him from the car and told him to go with that one, plus another track for the darker stuff, The film's music sound track was build up from those two pieces.

[Paul R Johnson]

When you engage a lighting person, does he charge you for the software he uses to help the design? Does the sound person charge you for the update to his editing software? Does the makeup person charge you for a new bottle of gas for the spray?

You still have this ridiculous view of samples.


Scene 3a. Interior of a small house is Saskatoon. A young stressed looking man is sitting hunched in front of a laptop. The room is furnished entirely with bookcases, containing ring binders all marked "Rules" and numbered. On his screen is a zoom meeting, with a distinguished looking person clearly sitting in a world class recording studio.

Ryan: Hi Mr Zimmer, thanks for agreeing to compose the music for my new epic, and the fee you have suggested is acceptable to me, we will be shooting as soon as you send me the music so we can shoot appropriately?

Hans Zimmer: Thank you for agreeing the fee, Mr Elder, but vere is the rough cut?

Ryan: I was waiting for the music first?

Han Zimmer: er, OK, but do you have zer story board? That vould help me no end.

Ryan: No, I thought it better to not complete that, as I have to spend a great amount of time learning how to colour correct the storyboard first?

Hans Zimmer: Zis is very strange, can you give me any idea?

Ryan: Yes - remember those tracks I sent of my favourite movies - I want that kind of thing, and make sure you include a bass flute, I really want that.

Hans Zimmer: I can do a bass flute, but it vont fit with the ideas I got from your clips - I thought zey were just flavour?

Ryan: No - I really want that bass flute sound, although I've been told it might not actually be a bass flute - but I do want a harmonica, by the way.

Hans Zimmer: A harmonica? Is zat not rather Morricone?

Ryan: No - I really like it. Do you want me to buy the samples now?

Hans Zimmer: Samples? Vot would I be vanting samples for?

Ryan: You know - I've been told composers use samples

Hans Zimmer: Ve do - but I prefer to choose my own samples from my own collection.

Ryan: But then I may not like them?

Hans Zimmer: Mr Elder, I am a composer, I have spent years building a vorld class collection of equipment to produce my music. I do not need you to buy me anything. You agreed my fee, and I provide the music. If I need a sound, I need it instantly. I do not wait for you to buy it for me.

Ryan: But what if you don't have what I want

Hans Zimmer: Zen you find yourself a new composer, just like you vill have to do now. Goodbye!

The zoom session is terminated by the other party, leaving the young man staring at the blank screen - stunned and surprised by what just happened.

Fades to black
End

[Ryan Elder]

Well a conversation I had with the composer before, did not go like that all. He said if I wanted certain sounds that he did not have, then he was fine with me getting them for him, as long they are not too strange or completely avante guarde per se, and as long as they fit.

I can wait till after the movie is made if that is best, but I was advised before to bring on a composer in pre-production, instead of waiting till post. Is there no reason to do that then?

[Brian Drysdale]

There's no set time for bringing in a composer. although they usually do the real work after the film has picture lock.

[Paul R Johnson]

How can you buy his sounds? It makes no sense? There are many reasons first is practical, he needs to get them, and then he can install them and you refund what he paid (and of course, he then has that new library - because it won't be one instrument normally - it will be another package. Normally, to get more stuff you need accounts and you just can't buy samples and give them to him.

he's seriously worrying me now. Are you sure he's a composer? He seems to be very unusual in how he works.

I cannot believe ANY composer would say "I've not got that sound, so you get it" because we do NOT talk about sounds and samples - unless we are talking to a client who really doesn't get it.

This is all wrong Ryan - it's a road to a rubbish product.

[Ryan Elder]

Well that is what I meant. He picks out the samples, and I pay him for them. That's what I meant when I said I would buy the sounds. He has most of the instruments already, but not some of the sounds that were in the example tracks I gave him. But I would pay for them after he picked them out.

[Paul R Johnson]

I'm sorry for banging on and on - but when I'm working and I need something I don't have, I am at a road block. In fact, usually the big problem for a composer is not having it, but finding it. Most sounds can be got via searches and selection - so today I wanted a melody instrument, and thought a flute sound would be OK, but there are thousands of them. So I thought maybe a synth flute would fit, that brought the choice down to a few hundred. I then spent a fruitless hour auditioning them and not finding what I wanted. So I started again with a clarinet sound, and again selected a filter to get rid of the real sounding ones, and I still don't have it. Now I'm having to audition again and try to figure out which one of thousands of sounds. Do I keep searching until I find the right one? Yes. I cannot type in flute into Google and find some out of the way sample maker - I'd be dead waiting for that. This is why I find it impossible to believe your composer doesn't have what you want - unless he has not been doing it very long and has not yet got a decent collection. It just seems very unusual.