Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?

[Paul R Johnson]

The thing Ryan, is that in the real world, you perhaps give some examples, then you let the composer work to the images. Until you have shot them, edited them and presented them to the composer - they can't compose. You seem to think the visuals are not important and they can produce the music first - it doesn't work like that. We've explained this over and over.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, but if the composer gives me a demonstration of what he has cooked up, and I feel that the sound is not working, should I just ask him to go with the sound that was in the example track instead, or should I ask him to keep trying with different sounds instead then? I feel that certain sounds could create a different emotion or feel, compared to other sounds, but that is how my brain interprets the feelings.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Ryan sounds like you're obsessing over your subjective ideas that aren't rooted in an expertise. A competent composer can use most any instrument to pull it off. A movie is for other people who aren't going to share your personal preferences in music, so as long as the music supports the mood of the scene that's all that matters. So you might like bass flute or associate that instrument with a certain mood but any other person probably won't share your opinions, that's why it's waste of time to micro manage such details. Maybe you should ask other people to listen to the track and describe the mood.

[Paul R Johnson]

How do you know without the images? You have the cart before the horse. You are deciding the music based on if you like it, like hearing a song on the radio. There is no context. Remember that cowboy film with the kind of whistling shrieking sound the great and grew. It fits the movie, but if you heard it without the images, we'd all hate it. Some of the music in Blade Runner without the pictures is atonal and horrid, but with the edit, it works perfectly.

The question of course is if your brain functions the same as the audience's. You are producing the music for their mood and emotional needs, not yours.

In one of the other topics somebody mentioned 2001. The scene in that movie where Dave in the pod is travelling has the weirdest images and a totally weird soundtrack. If that soundtrack had been played without the images, everyone would have hated it.

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

Ryan sounds like you're obsessing over your subjective ideas that aren't rooted in an expertise. A competent composer can use most any instrument to pull it off. A movie is for other people who aren't going to share your personal preferences in music, so as long as the music supports the mood of the scene that's all that matters. So you might like bass flute or associate that instrument with a certain mood but any other person probably won't share your opinions, that's why it's waste of time to micro manage such details. Maybe you should ask other people to listen to the track and describe the mood.

But if anyone instrument can pull off an emotion though, that how come in some movies it sounds much better than others when they use different instruments then?

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

How do you know without the images? You have the cart before the horse. You are deciding the music based on if you like it, like hearing a song on the radio. There is no context. Remember that cowboy film with the kind of whistling shrieking sound the great and grew. It fits the movie, but if you heard it without the images, we'd all hate it. Some of the music in Blade Runner without the pictures is atonal and horrid, but with the edit, it works perfectly.

The question of course is if your brain functions the same as the audience's. You are producing the music for their mood and emotional needs, not yours.

In one of the other topics somebody mentioned 2001. The scene in that movie where Dave in the pod is travelling has the weirdest images and a totally weird soundtrack. If that soundtrack had been played without the images, everyone would have hated it.

Oh yes I will get back on the project when it's finished shooting, but still have a preliminary plan going in. But I was also advised before to bring the composer early on in pre-production. Should I not then and only hire one in post?

But when you say I am doing it for the emotional needs of me and not the audience, wouldn't what I want, reflect what the audience wants since if I like it in a movie, than others should as well? Shouldn't I use my own judgment as to what I like as a basis?

[Josh Bass]

Uh, NO. If you still somehow haven't figured it out, you think VERY differently from most people and don't have a good sense of objective judgment about the way the things you put out there come across to others, which is why you're often baffled by the criticism you get. Most of us can use outside opinions on our art because we are too close to it to judge it objectively; you REALLY need this.

[Greg Miller]

I think a good example was given before concerning brass.

Ryan, imagine for a minute that we are back in silent film days, with a live pianist in the movie theatre providing accompaniment to each film that is shown. In one scene, a guy is in a barroom talking and laughing with friends; the piano plays something upbeat and maybe major key. Next scene there is a barroom brawl; the piano plays something more energetic, maybe some strident chords (or dischords) as the punches land. Next scene, our hero wins the fight; piano plays a fanfare. Then the protagonist jumps on his horse and rides away; the piano plays some "galloping" kind of music. Later the protagonist is in military uniform, marching to battle with other soldiers; the piano plays a march. And so on. At the end of the film, the protagonist is in a casket, we see the lid closed and the casket lowered into the ground; the piano plays taps. ... The next movie is a Buster Keaton comedy with entirely different mood to the music ... same piano.

For many people, for many years, the music did convey the proper mood to match each scene on the screen. And it was all played on the same piano. Imagine that's what you have to work with, and quit obsessing about telling the composer how to compose. How much time have we wasted debating whether a bass flute sounds to you like a clarinet (or whatever)?

The Pope did not tell Michelangelo what color paint to use, and certainly not whether to use Sherwin-Williams or Pratt & Lambert.

When I went to the hospital to have my gall bladder removed, I didn't tell the surgeon where to make the incision or which tool to use. I didin't tell her which kind of knot to use on the stitches. I didn't even tell the pre-op orderly how to shave my belly. I am not a surgeon or a surgical orderly. And you are not a musician.

Since you seem to believe in micro-management, here is my micro-management directive to you: Do not begin your reply with "Oh, okay." Not just today, but for the next seven days. How does that sit with you? Do you like being micro-managed? How does micro-management affect your composer and other collaborators?

[Greg Miller]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

wouldn't what I want, reflect what the audience wants since if I like it in a movie, than others should as well?

"SHOULD"? That is a big leap of faith on your part. That will be determined by the movie's success or failure.

Perhaps what the composer wants reflects what the audience wants. After all, he's hopefully a somewhat successful musician, and admitted you are not.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Greg, good analogy with the silent movie. But I have a feeling we're all talking in circles.

[Josh Bass]

Oh we definitely are. But I thought we were all ok with that and agreed that posting in these threads was a fun waste of time while we await the sweet embrace of death?

[Greg Miller]

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

I thought we were all ok with that and agreed that posting in these threads was a fun waste of time

"FUN"? That is a big leap of faith on your part. ;-)

[Paul R Johnson]

Ryan asks continually for advice, and when he gets it, he totally ignores it, or tries to convince us that he's right and we're wrong. Happens all the time, but I hope one day, the light bulb will go on and he'll realise.

I really would be pleased if he just tried some of our thoughts once in a while. or maybe we could just tell him he is right and he'd be happy.

Frankly, though - some things just make my jaw drop - such basic concepts that he doesn't get. Like this.

But if anyone instrument can pull off an emotion though, that how come in some movies it sounds much better than others when they use different instruments then?

Surely if we listen to any piece of music, we can, without any training, say it sounds happy, or sad, or angry. Kids at school do not get taught this - but some instruments get tagged with emotions. Saxophones are sexy, strings are sad, brass can be military, and so on - but then for every sexy sax, there will be one absolutely NOT sexy, and the romantic sad strings suddenly make going into the shower very scary.

So many times it is NOT the instrument but the notes it plats and how it's played. If you limit the pallette the composer can use, you really do tie a hand behind their back.

[Josh Bass]

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

"FUN"? That is a big leap of faith on your part. ;-)

I mean, I agree, but at this point it can't possibly be 'cause anyone thinks anything we post here will actually help. Maybe it's the modern day equivalent of flagellating ourselves with a cat o' nine tails in punishment for our own sins?

[Brian Drysdale]

Ryan seems to be confusing what he personally likes with what everyone else might like. All this is subjective and, as usual, he seems to be copy and pasting rather than trying to sense what the film itself may require so that it stands out.

It may be the case that a piece of music he personally hates may be what is best for the film.

[Greg Miller]

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

I mean, I agree, but at this point it can't possibly be 'cause anyone thinks anything we post here will actually help. Maybe it's the modern day equivalent of flagellating ourselves with a cat o' nine tails in punishment for our own sins?

I'm just doing penance for the pain I caused the adults around me when I was about ten years old and was always right because I knew everything about everything. Now I know slightly less.