Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?

Brian Drysdale · December 24th, 2020, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay. Well I didn't think I went into endless detail. I thought I would just tell him the instrument and sound like, and he would tell me. But I feel I have to point out the sounds I want, because in the past, if I didn't, the composers would not use those same instruments at all, and it wouldn't sound like what I wanted.

Providing the example tracks should solve this. If this is your feature film the composer could provide a number of short demos of the music, before composing the entire sound track, so that you can hear their proposed music.

This is more about communication, the composer should know how to create or source the required instruments.

Paul R Johnson · December 24th, 2020, 03:05 AM

I guess we’re in the audio section and We’ve done all we can for Ryan again.

Organs are amazing things and for my birthday in May last year, my wife bought me a session with an organist at a very large church where I have actually done a few recordings. Inside it revealed why sometimes they record oddly. The ranks of pipes you see sitting there were dummies! They’re crammed into every space. Things have been bodged over the years and some are even split ranks, where half are in one place but the rest squeezed into a space on the other side of a stone pillar, daft things like this. When you record, you record the sound of this crazy setup, hidden away, that escapes through spaces at the top and gets to the ears via the building’s acoustics. So when you record organ, you are recording the building, that just has an organ in it. This means the best place for a stereo pair of microphones might not be on the centre line of the nave, which is where we always put them, BUT, if you put the mics where the centre line of the physical organ loft is, you might get a reverb trail that lurches off to one side. Even worse, the huge size of some organs means there are obvious time delays between a bass note on one stop, and a treble pipe on a rank somewhere else. The room sound makes this into something focussed, so you need to wander around and find the special place. In some situations maybe even spaced techniques not coincident ones might be best, if the space is not very nice sounding, for example. Part of my present was being able, with my limited keyboard skills, to play the thing and it was so odd. Some of the original ranks of pipes are played with tracker wire, basically a bit of wire from the keys to the valves below the pipes, and pressing a key gives you a delay, then the note. Other newer additions are worked via electronics and sound more instantly, and a few done by pneumatics which sort of come in between. Add in delay from the more distant pipes and you have to play by feel, not your ears. And of course, there’s a huge motor blowing air which sounds like a railway train in some organs. Some record well, some are really awful. I did one recording, thankfully with a close miked singer for a video where the organ got totally replaced. It was old and so out of tune on some notes, you winced. Replacing the organ was actually quite hard because not only out of tune, it was globally out of tune. A hundred and fifty years ago it had been tuned by a dodgy tuning pipe, and ever since, because not all pipes could be returned, it had been tuned wrongly, repeatedly! In the old days, a new organ was tuned by simply taking a pipe from one church to another and using that, so like railway time, it wasnt that accurate. I had to raise the singers pitch half a semi-tone to put it right!

The picture is a good example. Church with two naves, one with a choir and the organ in the other. Choir mics in their section had hardly any organ so two sets of mics blended in the studio. It was a washy mess wherever I tried

Paul R Johnson · December 24th, 2020, 09:25 AM

For Ryan.
This features samples used for synthesis. I got an offer today so bought it. It explains maybe how it doesn't;t matter how sounds are created nowadays, absolutely weird but useful for movies I think.

Here's a walkthrough Watch this and see how the synth and sample content work together. maybe you'll get it.

https://youtu.be/g6q0ciCwZKE?list=RDUBlMCizA4Gs

Pete Cofrancesco · December 24th, 2020, 09:54 AM

My audio approach to the organ concert was unsophisticated. I didn't fully understand how organ worked, but now I have a better idea. It's situated up in a small choir loft. The pipes are hidden away in separate room with grates to let the sound out. I position a Zoom H1 to record up in the loft, which worked good but picked up the squeaking of the floor boards when I moved. I adjusted the mix for the sections to remove the noise. Which I'm uploaded the corrections as we speak.

My second mic (Zoom H5) I positioned down in the center of the sanctuary. There are additional pipes and grates at the back wall. I think these could be for the lower tones. This mic picked up more of the acoustics of the large space.

The audio results came out good but it was a pretty easy recording since there was only one instrument the organ. I brought a lot of equipment like 302 and various mics but I didn't have the time to use them and I didn't think they would help. I was more concentrated on the visuals. I also had challenges in that area too. I can't believe how much time I spent tweaking things. Every time I re-watch it I notice something new to fix.

Paul R Johnson · December 24th, 2020, 01:12 PM

If that was your first organ outing you did a great job being honest. Did you notice the changes in location as she swaps manuals. I'm sure you know bit for others maybe - the closed box with the louvres is a section of the organ called the swell - the Louvre foot flaps open and close following the pedal the organist can use to make the sound swell, or fade away, with a change in brightness too. The other ranks are the Great - a collection of the classic origin tones - and these are fixed in volume - pull the stop and that's the volume. No variation apart from selecting a quieter one! Bigger organs like this will then have a choir - melodic pipes that provide the 'filling' and then sometimes orchestra - where the sounds mimic orchestral instruments, where you find flutes, brass and woodwind sounds. The trouble with organs is that it's these ranks of pipes that are about in the open, that often end up a long way away. If you get the placement right - when suddenly the oboes join in - the stereo field suddenly opens up, which can sound great. American churches I've noticed are less reverberant than English churches, so can come across a bit dry when the they play big multi-stop combinations - the range in volume can be wide too - like when she plays on the lower manual. You also have the bass to consider - the big 16 and 32 ft pipes that can be humungously loud. The end of the popular Widor Toccata for example where it often seems like every rank is playing, and played by every limb and finger available!

Greg Miller · December 24th, 2020, 01:39 PM

Pete,

That's a nice recording. I presume you did *not* have the recorders at too high an elevation above the floor, since you didn't mention stands. In the range from "more organ" to "more room" I'd say your recording falls toward the "more organ" end. Some folks seem to favor the "more room" end of the range, to the extent that I find the organ - and the playing - poorly defined.

The pipes in the rear of the sanctuary are usually called the "echo organ." Not necessarily for just lower notes. Often containing softer or more mellow-sounding ranks of pipes for a more ethereal effect ... at least in the organs I've heard.

What Peter refers to as Louvres (Not the museum) would be spelled "louvers" in the US. That part of the instrument (which opens and closes to control sound from the organ's "swell" section) is alternatively called, in the US at least, "shutters."

Paul R Johnson · December 24th, 2020, 02:16 PM

Ha! Another difference to add to my book! I've never heard the US spelling of that word (not to be honest that many people here actually spell it right, for once, the US spelling might actually be better.

You know electric cars that don't have an engine (motor?) at the front? We've started a new word for a luggage space at the pointy end of a car - I'm hearing English people use the term "frunk" - your trunk works better than our "boot" - fboot, or foot wouldn't work would it!

Very best wishes to everyone for Christmas - Weather here has been heavy rain for a couple of days, with high winds, and my son's a police officer. He just got home telling us they called the army out as many small villages near us are flooded when the rivers broke their banks!

Pete Cofrancesco · December 24th, 2020, 02:27 PM

Thanks for the kind words. This was my first organ recording. The H5 was on a mic stand. I wasn’t expecting to use the H1 so I improvised by placing it on chair seat to elevate it. The volume in the sanctuary wasn’t as high as I expected even with the H5 at 8. I was lucky that the levels were high enough but didn't clip. That’s always the risk of unattended recorders because you do a sound check and then you get a song that's really loud and it clips. In classical music you can get such extreme highs and lows. I think you’re right the pipes at the back are more for acoustic effect.

Greg Miller · December 24th, 2020, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

We've started a new word for a luggage space at the pointy end of a car - I'm hearing English people use the term "frunk" - your trunk works better than our "boot" - fboot, or foot wouldn't work would it!

If it's a boot at the pointy end, why not call it a "poot"?

Josh Bass · December 24th, 2020, 07:48 PM

There should only be a poot in the car if youre driving alone...

Greg Miller · December 24th, 2020, 07:58 PM

Somehow, though, that's not how it turns out in real life. The passengers know what's coming when all the windows start rolling down simultaneously.

Josh Bass · December 24th, 2020, 08:13 PM

Sounds like someone who’s too comfortable and confident in their relationship with those other people

Greg Miller · December 24th, 2020, 09:07 PM

They'd do the same thing to me. That's why God created chili. Besides, at least I open the windows.

I just realized it's already Christmas across the pond, and soon will be here. So let me take a sec. to wish all of you Happy Holidays.

And best wishes for a 2021 that almost surely will be better than 2020. Check out the link I've posted in another thread:
https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv...ml#post1963000

Peace, out.
Greg

Ryan Elder · January 4th, 2021, 01:00 PM

Well some filmmakers advised me to save money and just do the music myself like other microbudget filmmakers have done such as Robert Rodriguez, Shane Carruth, or Melvin Van Peebles. But even though I know what sounds I want, I don't think I could actually compose the melodies though. But maybe it's worth a shot with practice to save money like they said... Of course this would be done in post, but just budgeting now.

Paul R Johnson · January 4th, 2021, 01:58 PM

Ryan I hope nobody in your family ever needs surgery, as clearly, you could whip out the odd appendix, or fix a slipped disc.

Then best you could do is use the music from the tracks you like so much. I cannot believe a non-musical person really believes they have the skills and talent to do this? What is your piano playing like? Or any other instrument? I'm totally stunned.

I presume your composer has told you to stick it?

December 24th, 2020, 03:05 AM	#272
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? I guess we’re in the audio section and We’ve done all we can for Ryan again. Organs are amazing things and for my birthday in May last year, my wife bought me a session with an organist at a very large church where I have actually done a few recordings. Inside it revealed why sometimes they record oddly. The ranks of pipes you see sitting there were dummies! They’re crammed into every space. Things have been bodged over the years and some are even split ranks, where half are in one place but the rest squeezed into a space on the other side of a stone pillar, daft things like this. When you record, you record the sound of this crazy setup, hidden away, that escapes through spaces at the top and gets to the ears via the building’s acoustics. So when you record organ, you are recording the building, that just has an organ in it. This means the best place for a stereo pair of microphones might not be on the centre line of the nave, which is where we always put them, BUT, if you put the mics where the centre line of the physical organ loft is, you might get a reverb trail that lurches off to one side. Even worse, the huge size of some organs means there are obvious time delays between a bass note on one stop, and a treble pipe on a rank somewhere else. The room sound makes this into something focussed, so you need to wander around and find the special place. In some situations maybe even spaced techniques not coincident ones might be best, if the space is not very nice sounding, for example. Part of my present was being able, with my limited keyboard skills, to play the thing and it was so odd. Some of the original ranks of pipes are played with tracker wire, basically a bit of wire from the keys to the valves below the pipes, and pressing a key gives you a delay, then the note. Other newer additions are worked via electronics and sound more instantly, and a few done by pneumatics which sort of come in between. Add in delay from the more distant pipes and you have to play by feel, not your ears. And of course, there’s a huge motor blowing air which sounds like a railway train in some organs. Some record well, some are really awful. I did one recording, thankfully with a close miked singer for a video where the organ got totally replaced. It was old and so out of tune on some notes, you winced. Replacing the organ was actually quite hard because not only out of tune, it was globally out of tune. A hundred and fifty years ago it had been tuned by a dodgy tuning pipe, and ever since, because not all pipes could be returned, it had been tuned wrongly, repeatedly! In the old days, a new organ was tuned by simply taking a pipe from one church to another and using that, so like railway time, it wasnt that accurate. I had to raise the singers pitch half a semi-tone to put it right! The picture is a good example. Church with two naves, one with a choir and the organ in the other. Choir mics in their section had hardly any organ so two sets of mics blended in the studio. It was a washy mess wherever I tried Attached Thumbnails

December 24th, 2020, 09:25 AM	#273
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? For Ryan. This features samples used for synthesis. I got an offer today so bought it. It explains maybe how it doesn't;t matter how sounds are created nowadays, absolutely weird but useful for movies I think. YouTube (Short URL) Here's a walkthrough Watch this and see how the synth and sample content work together. maybe you'll get it. https://youtu.be/g6q0ciCwZKE?list=RDUBlMCizA4Gs

December 24th, 2020, 09:54 AM	#274
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? My audio approach to the organ concert was unsophisticated. I didn't fully understand how organ worked, but now I have a better idea. It's situated up in a small choir loft. The pipes are hidden away in separate room with grates to let the sound out. I position a Zoom H1 to record up in the loft, which worked good but picked up the squeaking of the floor boards when I moved. I adjusted the mix for the sections to remove the noise. Which I'm uploaded the corrections as we speak. My second mic (Zoom H5) I positioned down in the center of the sanctuary. There are additional pipes and grates at the back wall. I think these could be for the lower tones. This mic picked up more of the acoustics of the large space. The audio results came out good but it was a pretty easy recording since there was only one instrument the organ. I brought a lot of equipment like 302 and various mics but I didn't have the time to use them and I didn't think they would help. I was more concentrated on the visuals. I also had challenges in that area too. I can't believe how much time I spent tweaking things. Every time I re-watch it I notice something new to fix. CBI Organ Concert 1-8-21 on Vimeo Attached Thumbnails

December 24th, 2020, 01:12 PM	#275
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? If that was your first organ outing you did a great job being honest. Did you notice the changes in location as she swaps manuals. I'm sure you know bit for others maybe - the closed box with the louvres is a section of the organ called the swell - the Louvre foot flaps open and close following the pedal the organist can use to make the sound swell, or fade away, with a change in brightness too. The other ranks are the Great - a collection of the classic origin tones - and these are fixed in volume - pull the stop and that's the volume. No variation apart from selecting a quieter one! Bigger organs like this will then have a choir - melodic pipes that provide the 'filling' and then sometimes orchestra - where the sounds mimic orchestral instruments, where you find flutes, brass and woodwind sounds. The trouble with organs is that it's these ranks of pipes that are about in the open, that often end up a long way away. If you get the placement right - when suddenly the oboes join in - the stereo field suddenly opens up, which can sound great. American churches I've noticed are less reverberant than English churches, so can come across a bit dry when the they play big multi-stop combinations - the range in volume can be wide too - like when she plays on the lower manual. You also have the bass to consider - the big 16 and 32 ft pipes that can be humungously loud. The end of the popular Widor Toccata for example where it often seems like every rank is playing, and played by every limb and finger available!

December 24th, 2020, 01:39 PM	#276
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Pete, That's a nice recording. I presume you did not have the recorders at too high an elevation above the floor, since you didn't mention stands. In the range from "more organ" to "more room" I'd say your recording falls toward the "more organ" end. Some folks seem to favor the "more room" end of the range, to the extent that I find the organ - and the playing - poorly defined. The pipes in the rear of the sanctuary are usually called the "echo organ." Not necessarily for just lower notes. Often containing softer or more mellow-sounding ranks of pipes for a more ethereal effect ... at least in the organs I've heard. What Peter refers to as Louvres (Not the museum) would be spelled "louvers" in the US. That part of the instrument (which opens and closes to control sound from the organ's "swell" section) is alternatively called, in the US at least, "shutters."

December 24th, 2020, 02:16 PM	#277
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Ha! Another difference to add to my book! I've never heard the US spelling of that word (not to be honest that many people here actually spell it right, for once, the US spelling might actually be better. You know electric cars that don't have an engine (motor?) at the front? We've started a new word for a luggage space at the pointy end of a car - I'm hearing English people use the term "frunk" - your trunk works better than our "boot" - fboot, or foot wouldn't work would it! Very best wishes to everyone for Christmas - Weather here has been heavy rain for a couple of days, with high winds, and my son's a police officer. He just got home telling us they called the army out as many small villages near us are flooded when the rivers broke their banks!

December 24th, 2020, 02:27 PM	#278
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Thanks for the kind words. This was my first organ recording. The H5 was on a mic stand. I wasn’t expecting to use the H1 so I improvised by placing it on chair seat to elevate it. The volume in the sanctuary wasn’t as high as I expected even with the H5 at 8. I was lucky that the levels were high enough but didn't clip. That’s always the risk of unattended recorders because you do a sound check and then you get a song that's really loud and it clips. In classical music you can get such extreme highs and lows. I think you’re right the pipes at the back are more for acoustic effect. Last edited by Pete Cofrancesco; December 24th, 2020 at 06:16 PM.

December 24th, 2020, 07:48 PM	#280
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? There should only be a poot in the car if youre driving alone... __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

December 24th, 2020, 07:58 PM	#281
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Somehow, though, that's not how it turns out in real life. The passengers know what's coming when all the windows start rolling down simultaneously.

December 24th, 2020, 08:13 PM	#282
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Sounds like someone who’s too comfortable and confident in their relationship with those other people __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

December 24th, 2020, 09:07 PM	#283
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? They'd do the same thing to me. That's why God created chili. Besides, at least I open the windows. I just realized it's already Christmas across the pond, and soon will be here. So let me take a sec. to wish all of you Happy Holidays. And best wishes for a 2021 that almost surely will be better than 2020. Check out the link I've posted in another thread: https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv...ml#post1963000 Peace, out. Greg

January 4th, 2021, 01:00 PM	#284
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Well some filmmakers advised me to save money and just do the music myself like other microbudget filmmakers have done such as Robert Rodriguez, Shane Carruth, or Melvin Van Peebles. But even though I know what sounds I want, I don't think I could actually compose the melodies though. But maybe it's worth a shot with practice to save money like they said... Of course this would be done in post, but just budgeting now.

January 4th, 2021, 01:58 PM	#285
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Ryan I hope nobody in your family ever needs surgery, as clearly, you could whip out the odd appendix, or fix a slipped disc. Then best you could do is use the music from the tracks you like so much. I cannot believe a non-musical person really believes they have the skills and talent to do this? What is your piano playing like? Or any other instrument? I'm totally stunned. I presume your composer has told you to stick it?