Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

I’ll be honest, there are many things Ryan believes (misguidedly) that I can say “Yeah, I could see why he would think that, it almost makes sense, if you didnt know better,” but this one is beyond me.

You can know roughly, but you don't need to know this level of detail. Knowing that a certain piece sounds like a possible starting point is all you need. Going into endless detail on the instrumentation now is just pure masturbation (as I one film called at Cannes).

[Ryan Elder]

Well I don't think it's wrong to take inspirations from other movies, is there? Other filmmakers do it as well.

[Paul R Johnson]

But you don't take inspiration, you lift and copy - and have done this over and over again, and are eternally surprised when it goes wrong.

I don't think I have ever shot video to music already existing, apart from music videos. The composers job is to work to picture, not the other way around. I want scary, or lovey, or on edge, or suspenseful, or relaxing, or relaxing suddenly changing to something else at a certain point. People have given me examples of music they found that supported this. Not once has anyone every said "I want a bass flute", or a harmonica. Providing a harmonica as an example would be fine, or the breathy flute, but we are in a creative, cast and crew industry and everyone falls into one category, or maybe two - hardly ever all three. Sadly, you're not very creative, and struggle at being one of the crew. I was lighting a band once, and realised the guy standing in the wings was the Lighting Designer who had just done Genesis and the Rolling Stones. It made me extremely uncomfortable. It made me realise that while technically, I'm pretty competent, artistically I'm not that creative. Ryan doesn't understand this at all. He has his fifteen volume rule book, and still believes that by following page 43, followed by 225, he will have a hit, because Zeffirelli used the trick and so did Ridley Scott so it will absolutely work.

Well I don't think it's wrong to take inspirations from other movies, is there? Other filmmakers do it as well.

This is the key. You are repeatedly misunderstanding other filmmaker's techniques and turning inspiration into mimicry. Other filmmakers use it for inspiration and produce things better.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay but when I tell composers what I want I'm not following a rule book am i?

[Brian Drysdale]

You can be inspired by an idea or a technique used, but you have to make it your own. Just because it was used in someone else's film. doesn't mean it's appropriate for your film.

In this case, you seem to be copy and pasting the instruments used in other films, you're seemingly not paying any attention to the mood or the pacing or other aspects of the music which will be particular to your film. .

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Well I don't think it's wrong to take inspirations from other movies, is there? Other filmmakers do it as well.

It seems all you're capable of lifting ideas directly form others work to create patch work quilt you call you own. I have far more respect for someone who follows their own vision and does something that is original, even if it fails. Because even with that failure they are growing stronger by the process of creating. When you copy you become weaker because you are building a dependency on other people's ideas. You'd be far better off not looking at another movie until you can stand on your own two feet.

It may very well be you lack the ability for this creativity. There is no harm it. Just do something else that doesn't require it. Its better to accept your limitations and put your efforts in where they are well suited.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, I want the music to be the composers own of course. But don't I need to give some sort of examples? He can then take those examples and make them his own as long as it's what I like but is that not good?

[Brian Drysdale]

You can give some examples of the music you think might work, but don't get involved in micromanaging the type of flute being used, that's the composer's job.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, well the reason why I thought of a bass flute is because I didn't want the composer to pick something that sounded too strange for the project necessarily, but maybe that would be a good thing.

But when I told him I wanted a cello for certain parts of it, is that bad of me to say for example? He might suggest something I like better, which is good.

[Brian Drysdale]

Again, that type of detail can wait until the composer is working with the final film. Given the amount of time until the music will be required, that leaves a fair amount of time for you to go through endless changes on the instruments that you may want in this music

The length of this thread over a month would seem to indicate that there could be quite a few changes over a number of months..

[Ryan Elder]

Ok okay thanks. You're right I will wait till the final film. But I was thinking of what some filmmakers have done and play the music during shooting the scene for the actors to get the feel of, like Sergio Leone did, unless that's a bad idea?

[Paul R Johnson]

What you are repeatedly missing is the understanding or appreciation of WHY one composer chose an instrument and most importantly how it was played. Not once have you said I want a cello played spiccato, rather than staccato. Picking an instrument without guidance is pointless.

Liking something is no guarantee it is musically appropriate. As we keep saying, you insist on making decisions you shouldn’t. You don’t trust your people. If you are a top league director, your micro management could be very appropriate. We’ve given loads of examples of composers, actors, DoPs being overruled and it working, but this result is very rare and unlikely in the majority of cases.

Shoot the movie, do the editing and then the composer will know how to fit music to whatever your plan morphed into.

Remember your old projects and how crazy circumstances required heavy changes? Why write music for scenes you will savage later.

[Brian Drysdale]

I'm aware of Sergio Leone doing it, but you don't have the resources of any of his films, which also used looped dialogue (ADR today), as was the the Italian method at the time. So, you could play music and shoot directions without worrying about the sound.

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

I'm aware of Sergio Leone doing it, but you don't have the resources of any of his films, which also used looped dialogue (ADR today), as was the the Italian method at the time. So, you could play music and shoot directions without worrying about the sound.

Oh but I thought I could do it during scenes that were not so dialogue driven when dialogue was not being spoken. But yeah, I won't do it then and save it for later.

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

What you are repeatedly missing is the understanding or appreciation of WHY one composer chose an instrument and most importantly how it was played. Not once have you said I want a cello played spiccato, rather than staccato. Picking an instrument without guidance is pointless.

Liking something is no guarantee it is musically appropriate. As we keep saying, you insist on making decisions you shouldn’t. You don’t trust your people. If you are a top league director, your micro management could be very appropriate. We’ve given loads of examples of composers, actors, DoPs being overruled and it working, but this result is very rare and unlikely in the majority of cases.

Shoot the movie, do the editing and then the composer will know how to fit music to whatever your plan morphed into.

Remember your old projects and how crazy circumstances required heavy changes? Why write music for scenes you will savage later.

Yeah that's true. I can save the music for later. I wasn't giving the composer instruments without context. I would show a composer an example track to work of and would say I like that instrument and the way it's being played, and he would tell me what it was, and then I would say I want that, or something like that.

[Paul R Johnson]

You didn't say that earlier, you said you picked the instrument, not him. You also repeatedly talked just about the instrument and only in the latest Clint Eastwood clips did you mention anything about playing styles. Like when you said you wanted a cello - why? What for, as in purpose? Schindler's list can work brilliantly on a cello, oboe, clarinet or even disco synthesiser, when played with care, sensitivity and passion.

Perhaps I am not explaining well enough. If you search the net for MIDI files, most computers will attempt too play them. The Morricone stuff is there, produced by wonderful musicians AND musical incompetents. I just turned the TV on and Karate Kid is on - the music was pan flute and strings, with sea shore effects - so almost anything can fit if a musician is involved. My favourite score has to be Blade Runner. Hardly a real instrument to be heard. A great Director, but I bet he never asked Vangellis to stick a bass flute in that!