The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Ryan Elder · July 22nd, 2020, 02:12 AM

Oh okay, yes, I am not going to record any gunshots that are captured doing the shooting of the movie. These are going to be sounds captured before shooting, which I will then use later, once the footage is shot. As for mixing different shots, I am going to be recording different types of guns at a firing range, so I should have quite a few options.

However, I've tried a some gunshots online for free, but didn't really like the sounds, so I thought I would just try recording my own. Plus they just sounded too different, because they were recorded with different equipment than mine. They sound like obvious stock sounds, and not organic with what the rest of the movie will sound like. Also, most of the gun shot sounds I could find, sound like they are recorded from too far away, perspective wise. Where as I plan on having shots in close quarters scenes, that need to sound much more close up, perspective wise.

As for digital sounding aweful, are you saying that no gunshot is going to sound good, unless it's recorded analog? When you say over modulating, how will it over modulate as long as I set the gain and fader correctly?

Brian Drysdale · July 22nd, 2020, 02:50 AM

Sound library effects always sound dry and clean. It's intended that you mandibulate them in post. It's pretty common, as I mentioned before, to combine effects.

There's a wide range of libraries out there, you can check them out. Why do you think that you can do a better job than professional recordists offering a range weapon sounds? You could just come up with the pretty same thing because straight recordings all sound the same.

If the audience can tell that a sound effect is recorded on different audio equipment, you've got a problem with your movie because they're not interested in the story.

Lets say analogue and digital are different in how they handle over modulation when you record. It's something that recording studios made use of and why some held onto their analogue tape machines for a number of tears because of the saturated sound.

Is this whole thread just preparation for your movie? You're supposed to be rewriting your script.

Ryan Elder · July 22nd, 2020, 02:57 AM

Oh okay thanks. Yes I am rewriting the script, but the gun range opportunity is coming up, and it's free for me, so I thought I would get on it.

Well what are some good sound libraries online, if I am looking in the right places? I can keep looking.

As for the sounds, not sounding like they are the same movie, isn't this normal when trying to use different sounds recorded from very different sources? I can tell this when it comes to trying to mix footage from different cameras, as it often looks different, even if you try to make it look the same.

So wouldn't it be noticeable in audio as well, or is audio much easier to match, making it sound like the same movie, compared to video? As digital not handling over-modulation well, what if I just don't over-modulate?

Brian Drysdale · July 22nd, 2020, 03:01 AM

Cameras and audio recordings are apples and oranges. Recording studios use different mics for instruments and singers on the same recording, it's the same when recording sound for a film soundtrack,

You shouldn't over modulate digital,

Ryan Elder · July 22nd, 2020, 03:09 AM

Oh okay, but it's just I often cannot get stock sound to match, or at least I can tell it's stock sound, but maybe I'm being too picky.

As for over-modulating, am I doing anything to over-modulate though?

Brian Drysdale · July 22nd, 2020, 03:16 AM

How can a stock sound effect match a film that doesn't yet exist?

All the gun sounds you hear in films are not real.

If you've got a peak meter you should be OK.

Ryan Elder · July 22nd, 2020, 03:38 AM

Oh I'm just going by past experience, cause I tried using gunshots before for a past project from online, and I really didn't like the results, and felt it sounded too much like a different movie with the gunshots.

What's a peak meter have to do with over modulating, since I thought the peak meter was about peaking, or does it have to do with modulating as well?

Brian Drysdale · July 22nd, 2020, 03:56 AM

How will you know if you're over modulating if you don't know where you're peaking?

You have to select the right gun shots, then use the right reverb and other audio elements during the mix in order for any gun shots to work in a film. This applies just as much when you've recorded them yourself because the basic sound from the gun will be pretty much the same, unless it has a particular characteristic. Make sure that you're downloading a high quality WAV file from the library and not a highly compressed file.

A good library will have a range of guns in their catalogue. Sound editors can have a large collection of their own gun effects

Paul R Johnson · July 22nd, 2020, 05:00 AM

Peaking is where the modulation of the signal exceeds a pre-determined maximum. In video, we often accept too much light as just a white maximum, that if it's on certain areas can't really be noticed - but is clearly bad, while in audio, over level results in very unpleasant result.

Modulation is not a common term for sound folk to use relating to audio. It is in RF circles, where we modulate carrier waves with either amplitude or frequency signals. I don't think I've ever considered microphones or other capture devices to modulate. It normally signifies the interaction of two or more frequencies. Interesting point, but can you modulate silence with audio? That's a multi-page discussion. You can modulate audio with hum. Over modulating is not the same as having too potent a signal. Is there a term for the AM version of FM overdeviating - not sure I've heard one.

Have I drifted too far ............. ?

Brian Drysdale · July 22nd, 2020, 06:00 AM

LOL I suspect over modulation has slipped into also meaning off the scale, rather than the technically correct meaning.

Pete Cofrancesco · July 22nd, 2020, 06:22 AM

Why doesn’t he ever start out with the real topic? It takes at least a day to uncover what he’s doing . He should have started off with... I’m going to a shooting range and would like to record gun shots with a zoom F8 and xyz mic for my movie. Any recommendations...

There’s no harm in trying but I suspect that specialists in this line of work know how to do it better than you so buying stock is going to be the more logical decision. Wouldn’t be easier to film the scene and then find the proper sound effect?

You’re going to do it anyways so I would record a few tests with the gain set differently giving yourself plenty of headroom. Play it back to ensure it’s not over modulated. There are many other more important variables such as location, type of gun, mic type and mic placement that far more important than the position of the fader dial. In this situation the fader is going to be useless since the gun shot sound will be too fast to adjust while recording. This why it’s pointless to ask out of context questions.

Greg Miller · July 22nd, 2020, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Peaking is where the modulation of the signal exceeds a pre-determined maximum. In video, we often accept too much light as just a white maximum, that if it's on certain areas can't really be noticed - but is clearly bad, while in audio, over level results in very unpleasant result.

Modulation is not a common term for sound folk to use relating to audio. It is in RF circles, where we modulate carrier waves with either amplitude or frequency signals. I don't think I've ever considered microphones or other capture devices to modulate. It normally signifies the interaction of two or more frequencies. Interesting point, but can you modulate silence with audio? That's a multi-page discussion. You can modulate audio with hum. Over modulating is not the same as having too potent a signal. Is there a term for the AM version of FM overdeviating - not sure I've heard one.

Have I drifted too far ............. ?

Paul, that's an excellent point. I was just wondering whether I should mention it. As a retired broadcast engineer (and present amateur radio operator) I am pretty specific when I use the term "modulation."

I would say you can *not* modulate silence with audio, because silence is nothing.

If audio is modulated by hum, that's IM (inter-modulation) distortion. In a distortion-free linear system, you could remove the hum later (with a notch or low-cut filter) and the other audio would be completely clear, with no sign the hum was ever there.

In the AM world it's just plain "over-modulating." Modulation changes the level of the carrier-frequency signal. At 100% positive modulation, the carrier is twice the amplitude of the un-modulated state. Positive modulation can exceed 100%, although the FCC sets limits on the amplitude of positive peaks. At 100% negative modulation, the carrier level goes to zero ... so very specific clipping does occur. You cannot exceed 100% negative modulation, because you cannot have less than zero carrier. Every RF operator I've known, and the FCC rules, all use the term "over-modulation."

In fact I think the term "peaking" is a bit incorrectly used to mean "clipping." All normal audio (e.g. dialog) has peaks. When recording on a digital system we try to keep the frequently-occurring peaks at ~ -12dBFS, giving us enough headroom so that louder peaks will not clip. Peaks are a problem only when they are at such a high level that they cause distortion. I prefer to say the audio is "distorting" or is "clipping" (where clipping is one particular type of distorting, and it's most common and most deadly in the digital world).

Curmudgeon that I am, I feel that just because some inaccurate terminology is slipping into common usage is no reason to perpetuate it.

Greg Miller · July 22nd, 2020, 08:11 AM

If Ryan wants the sound of gunshots from a close distance (e.g. what the shooter would hear, rather than what an observer would hear from 20 or 200 feet away) I think the overriding factor will be choice of an appropriate mic. What's the loudest instantaneous SPL produced by the gun in question, in the space in question? What mic can handle that SPL and produce an undistorted waveform of that sound?

After that question has been answered, and the appropriate mic procured, then and only then can anyone think intelligently about preamp trim, the possible necessity of using a passive pad ahead of the preamp, fader position, and gain staging.

All legitimate questions, but I haven't a clue. I've never pondered actually recording gunshots myself ... just not something I've ever needed (or desired) to do.

Does Ryan have the tenacity and ability to research the subject fully and make the right choices? Do most people? I suspect this is why a lot of folks use a good SFX library when they need a gunshot..

Brian Drysdale · July 22nd, 2020, 08:23 AM

Normally peaking at a particular dB is what I would use when referring to levels. The peak level with a gun shot I suspect would depend on how the meter responds to such transients and if the meter will display the peak in a manner that you can read.

I know that -3dB on the drum transients of our loyalist bands usually works OK with the meters on broadcast cameras. with the rest of the instruments falling into place pretty well at the usual levels.

Testing is the way to go with a gun.

Boyd Ostroff · July 22nd, 2020, 08:43 AM

You know, the F8 has a very nice free app for iPhones and iPads. Worth checking out if you haven't tried it yet, I use it all the time. In fact, the app is the reason why I got the F8.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/f8-control/id1014945716

If you just tap a gain knob on the screen in the app, a popup appears with a numeric value.

July 22nd, 2020, 02:12 AM	#31
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? Oh okay, yes, I am not going to record any gunshots that are captured doing the shooting of the movie. These are going to be sounds captured before shooting, which I will then use later, once the footage is shot. As for mixing different shots, I am going to be recording different types of guns at a firing range, so I should have quite a few options. However, I've tried a some gunshots online for free, but didn't really like the sounds, so I thought I would just try recording my own. Plus they just sounded too different, because they were recorded with different equipment than mine. They sound like obvious stock sounds, and not organic with what the rest of the movie will sound like. Also, most of the gun shot sounds I could find, sound like they are recorded from too far away, perspective wise. Where as I plan on having shots in close quarters scenes, that need to sound much more close up, perspective wise. As for digital sounding aweful, are you saying that no gunshot is going to sound good, unless it's recorded analog? When you say over modulating, how will it over modulate as long as I set the gain and fader correctly?

July 22nd, 2020, 02:50 AM	#32
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? Sound library effects always sound dry and clean. It's intended that you mandibulate them in post. It's pretty common, as I mentioned before, to combine effects. There's a wide range of libraries out there, you can check them out. Why do you think that you can do a better job than professional recordists offering a range weapon sounds? You could just come up with the pretty same thing because straight recordings all sound the same. If the audience can tell that a sound effect is recorded on different audio equipment, you've got a problem with your movie because they're not interested in the story. Lets say analogue and digital are different in how they handle over modulation when you record. It's something that recording studios made use of and why some held onto their analogue tape machines for a number of tears because of the saturated sound. Is this whole thread just preparation for your movie? You're supposed to be rewriting your script.

July 22nd, 2020, 02:57 AM	#33
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? Oh okay thanks. Yes I am rewriting the script, but the gun range opportunity is coming up, and it's free for me, so I thought I would get on it. Well what are some good sound libraries online, if I am looking in the right places? I can keep looking. As for the sounds, not sounding like they are the same movie, isn't this normal when trying to use different sounds recorded from very different sources? I can tell this when it comes to trying to mix footage from different cameras, as it often looks different, even if you try to make it look the same. So wouldn't it be noticeable in audio as well, or is audio much easier to match, making it sound like the same movie, compared to video? As digital not handling over-modulation well, what if I just don't over-modulate?

July 22nd, 2020, 03:01 AM	#34
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? Cameras and audio recordings are apples and oranges. Recording studios use different mics for instruments and singers on the same recording, it's the same when recording sound for a film soundtrack, You shouldn't over modulate digital,

July 22nd, 2020, 03:09 AM	#35
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? Oh okay, but it's just I often cannot get stock sound to match, or at least I can tell it's stock sound, but maybe I'm being too picky. As for over-modulating, am I doing anything to over-modulate though?

July 22nd, 2020, 03:16 AM	#36
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? How can a stock sound effect match a film that doesn't yet exist? All the gun sounds you hear in films are not real. If you've got a peak meter you should be OK.

July 22nd, 2020, 03:38 AM	#37
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? Oh I'm just going by past experience, cause I tried using gunshots before for a past project from online, and I really didn't like the results, and felt it sounded too much like a different movie with the gunshots. What's a peak meter have to do with over modulating, since I thought the peak meter was about peaking, or does it have to do with modulating as well?

July 22nd, 2020, 03:56 AM	#38
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? How will you know if you're over modulating if you don't know where you're peaking? You have to select the right gun shots, then use the right reverb and other audio elements during the mix in order for any gun shots to work in a film. This applies just as much when you've recorded them yourself because the basic sound from the gun will be pretty much the same, unless it has a particular characteristic. Make sure that you're downloading a high quality WAV file from the library and not a highly compressed file. A good library will have a range of guns in their catalogue. Sound editors can have a large collection of their own gun effects

July 22nd, 2020, 05:00 AM	#39
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? Peaking is where the modulation of the signal exceeds a pre-determined maximum. In video, we often accept too much light as just a white maximum, that if it's on certain areas can't really be noticed - but is clearly bad, while in audio, over level results in very unpleasant result. Modulation is not a common term for sound folk to use relating to audio. It is in RF circles, where we modulate carrier waves with either amplitude or frequency signals. I don't think I've ever considered microphones or other capture devices to modulate. It normally signifies the interaction of two or more frequencies. Interesting point, but can you modulate silence with audio? That's a multi-page discussion. You can modulate audio with hum. Over modulating is not the same as having too potent a signal. Is there a term for the AM version of FM overdeviating - not sure I've heard one. Have I drifted too far ............. ?

July 22nd, 2020, 06:00 AM	#40
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? LOL I suspect over modulation has slipped into also meaning off the scale, rather than the technically correct meaning.

July 22nd, 2020, 06:22 AM	#41
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? Why doesn’t he ever start out with the real topic? It takes at least a day to uncover what he’s doing . He should have started off with... I’m going to a shooting range and would like to record gun shots with a zoom F8 and xyz mic for my movie. Any recommendations... There’s no harm in trying but I suspect that specialists in this line of work know how to do it better than you so buying stock is going to be the more logical decision. Wouldn’t be easier to film the scene and then find the proper sound effect? You’re going to do it anyways so I would record a few tests with the gain set differently giving yourself plenty of headroom. Play it back to ensure it’s not over modulated. There are many other more important variables such as location, type of gun, mic type and mic placement that far more important than the position of the fader dial. In this situation the fader is going to be useless since the gun shot sound will be too fast to adjust while recording. This why it’s pointless to ask out of context questions. Last edited by Pete Cofrancesco; July 22nd, 2020 at 07:34 AM.

July 22nd, 2020, 08:11 AM	#43
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,792	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? If Ryan wants the sound of gunshots from a close distance (e.g. what the shooter would hear, rather than what an observer would hear from 20 or 200 feet away) I think the overriding factor will be choice of an appropriate mic. What's the loudest instantaneous SPL produced by the gun in question, in the space in question? What mic can handle that SPL and produce an undistorted waveform of that sound? After that question has been answered, and the appropriate mic procured, then and only then can anyone think intelligently about preamp trim, the possible necessity of using a passive pad ahead of the preamp, fader position, and gain staging. All legitimate questions, but I haven't a clue. I've never pondered actually recording gunshots myself ... just not something I've ever needed (or desired) to do. Does Ryan have the tenacity and ability to research the subject fully and make the right choices? Do most people? I suspect this is why a lot of folks use a good SFX library when they need a gunshot..

July 22nd, 2020, 08:23 AM	#44
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? Normally peaking at a particular dB is what I would use when referring to levels. The peak level with a gun shot I suspect would depend on how the meter responds to such transients and if the meter will display the peak in a manner that you can read. I know that -3dB on the drum transients of our loyalist bands usually works OK with the meters on broadcast cameras. with the rest of the instruments falling into place pretty well at the usual levels. Testing is the way to go with a gun.

July 22nd, 2020, 08:43 AM	#45
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know? You know, the F8 has a very nice free app for iPhones and iPads. Worth checking out if you haven't tried it yet, I use it all the time. In fact, the app is the reason why I got the F8. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/f8-control/id1014945716 If you just tap a gain knob on the screen in the app, a popup appears with a numeric value.