Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case?

Paul R Johnson · December 31st, 2019, 03:30 AM

How exactly do you propose to distribute the finished product - as in how are you going to send it to the festival? Have they supplied you with a required format, including the sound?

I'm not sure you understand the real fundamentals here. Have you got a 5:1 system, with a sub in your home/studio/edit suite?

Do you understand the complexity and the parameters for levels in 5:1? I have a friend who has built a home cinema that cost more than my house, and he spends hours with a measurement mic and specific cinema software tweaking the playback system to give the 'perfect' listening environment for the three seats centre. When I try to sit in the comfy sofa seats at the rear, he moves me to get the best listening environment. He then watches movies that explore the sound space. Usually they're terrible movies, but there are common elements. Movement (audio movement) on speech is minimal. The dialogue irrespective of where the speaking person is in the frame ALWAYS comes from the centre channel. It might focus left or right in the front channels, but the centre channel never loses it - so while there can be movement in the stereo field it's minimal. The rear channels get FX and reverb in the main - and often not even realistic reverb - just space.

With a half decent home system this will be evident by listening.

I want to pick you up on the idea of 'junior' - that's not what anyone was saying. There is, however a sort of status of job roles, and it's also reflected in the pay for the role. All job roles in our business have a 'level' of sorts, but they really differ in breadth and depth and ultimate importance. They all need different skill sets. Some are progressive jobs, where as your skillset grows, you jump up to the next job on the hierarchical pyramid, where often job areas start to converge. The director, on top of the pyramid has everyone's departments under them - sound, lighting, cameras, editing, set, costume but even marketing and promotion might creep in in some projects. A sparks, or audio person, or the old clapper/loader is on or near the base of the pyramid. It is foolish to compare what a boom swinger does to the person sitting in the studio doing a surround mix. Their contribution to the 'whole' gets weighed, status confirmed and pay awarded. You can infer a level or status, but as they do different jobs in the same department I suspect the surround mixer would indeed by a higher status job role. Not something you could walk in cold to, unlike as you discovered you tried when you did booming. You never mastered it, and didn't become expert - but as you have done this in every role so far, you still have the same status - beginner.

I have been in recording studios since I was 16, and while I think I'm competent enough now, I have friends who can do it quicker and often better than me without seeming to even try. One retired early, then got called back out of retirement by his old employer, because a project came up nobody was comfy with.

Ryan - surely you know all this? That old topic made me sigh. You seem to have learned zero since you posted it. I'm so tempted to make a rubbish youtube video full of bad advice, wrong terminology and seriously crazy comments and wait for you to link to it. Do you not have any kind of quality filter? You also take everything people say literally, when often they're making ironic comments and you don't pick up on it.

I'm very comfy in studios, and I make part of my living from music for moving images and I do not think I would be comfy mixing audio for a movie project in 5:1 stereo. I think I would do it adequately, but if the project were really important, I would make stems, and give these to a real surround mixer. I have the equipment, but I do NOT have the skills to do an effective surround mix that would work in a real cinema setting. I could do it, but it would not have the right levels for one, and it would probably just not work, or work poorly. Stereo, or L/C/R fine - I do these happily, but not 5:1.

Ryan Elder · December 31st, 2019, 11:47 AM

Okay sure. And I can pay for a surround sound or stereo mix if that is better, just trying to cover some areas myself if I can to save money.

I also talked to another filmmaker who's film got sold to Netflix, and he said they wanted a 5.1 mix but he just gave them a 3.0 stereo mix, with the other three channels on the 5.1, being empty, and they accepted that. He said just to do that if a distributor asked, since it worked for him. That seems surprising though.

Brian Drysdale · December 31st, 2019, 12:37 PM

It would be a lot more sensible if the feature film sound mix is done at a suitably equipped facility. If you have no experience in a key part of a commercial film, it works out cheaper in the long run to get people who know what they're doing.

Purchased productions tend to be treated differently to commissioned productions, Netflicks may be less concerned about this than if it was one of their own commissioned productions, in which they have a long term investment.

Ryan Elder · December 31st, 2019, 12:50 PM

Sure, and I can hire someone who knows what they are doing then. But if that is the case, should I pay for a 3.0 or a 5.1 then?

Brian Drysdale · December 31st, 2019, 01:51 PM

It depends on your budget. but if go to a proper facility they'll have a mixing suite, because you'll need the loudspeakers, screen etc for the surround sound in order to do a proper theatrical mix. It's not just the person, but the faculties that allows them to do their job.

You need to get quotes for planning your budget. I would do a deal with someone with drama experience, because they're likely to be a lot faster than someone without any experience, plus they'll know the delivery requirements.

Ryan Elder · December 31st, 2019, 02:49 PM

Okay sure. I can just record all the sound effects and foley then to save money, and then someone else can do all the engineering and mixing if that's better.

As for whether or not a 5.1 lends itself to the story, if we are seeking distribution, is it best to have 5.1 ready to go, regardless, if they want it, whether it lends itself to the story or not?

Brian Drysdale · December 31st, 2019, 03:55 PM

Lay your tracks and confirm with whoever is doing the mix the format and how they want it delivered.

You're unlikely to get theatrical distribution, steaming or similar is more likely. It may come down to cost in the end, if you can afford to do a good 5:1 mix, that fine, if not go for stereo.

Ryan Elder · December 31st, 2019, 04:52 PM

Oh okay thanks. I didn't think I would get theatrical distribution, but hoped for some kind like Netflix or Amazon, like some other filmmakers I know, have had.

Paul R Johnson · January 1st, 2020, 04:49 AM

YOU can record the Foley? I somehow doubt that Ryan. It's yet another totally different area of recording. Do you have the equipment and the facilities? Do you have any experience with it at all? I'd strongly advise you to take a piece of your already recorded stuff - the time machine would work - and mute the sound totally and try to make the noises you had recorded for real. The trees rustling, the car doors slamming, footsteps on pavement and grass. This would be good for you to try, and you never know, you could be good at it.

I also find it quite funny that Netflix didn't comment on a 5:1 requirement with no rear or sub channel. Considering how nit picking they are on vision issues, I find this very hard to believe.

Ryan Elder · January 1st, 2020, 01:59 PM

Oh well maybe I am not the best at Foley. I did it on some of my past projects, to save money, but I still got others to do the mix, after the Foley was recorded. Aside from the post mixing, how does my Foley sound in these project clips? Or is it hard to tell with the post mixing done after the Foley? I also did the non-Foley sound effects as well:

I also did the Foley in this one:

Paul R Johnson · January 1st, 2020, 04:07 PM

What did you actually do? I'm guessing the obvious stuff in the fight sequence where the baseball bats are flying, but it's difficult to tell what was live and what was recreated. The impression is the general sound was a little 'raw' - so some bits sounded very clean, like the drink can opening. For what it's worth - I'd hang onto the girl and grandad in the last sequence. The best two actors in those clips. I'd also say that none of those clips would do very well in 5:1, nothing much for the rear channels to do.

Ryan Elder · January 1st, 2020, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

What did you actually do? I'm guessing the obvious stuff in the fight sequence where the baseball bats are flying, but it's difficult to tell what was live and what was recreated. The impression is the general sound was a little 'raw' - so some bits sounded very clean, like the drink can opening. For what it's worth - I'd hang onto the girl and grandad in the last sequence. The best two actors in those clips. I'd also say that none of those clips would do very well in 5:1, nothing much for the rear channels to do.

Oh okay. If I remember correct I recorded all the Foley and sound effects. Someone else did the mixing afterwards, but I don't think they added in any of their own.

And yes, these clips would not call for 5.1. The first two were mixed in stereo, and the third one was done in mono I believe. But if these types of projects or genres do not call for 5.1 then I don't have to. However, if I am co-directing a feature now, where the producers want to seek distribution and Netflix or other distributors ask for it, should I have a mixer do a 5.1 anyway then?

Josh Bass · January 1st, 2020, 05:50 PM

Before you get super wrapped up in this (or anything else), you should make sure the other director is even going to allow you to make those types of decisions. You've already mentioned how you've been overridden on other things and relegated to a much smaller role than you'd initially imagined. Does he/she have any idea you're thinking about this, or star filters, or any of the rest? You might get a rude awakening if these things have not been discussed.

Ryan Elder · January 1st, 2020, 05:52 PM

Yes I have gone over it with him. Of course I am no sound mixing expert by any means, but he says that since I know more about the sound part of things, he says, he is allowing me to make those decisions so far.

Paul R Johnson · January 2nd, 2020, 03:37 AM

Until you get it wrong, Ryan. Remember people get very protective when their ideas get messed up by somebody else.

Going back to Foley - I meant which of the sounds we heard were real, and which ones did you create in your studio? Difficult to comment on a sound that was a bit weak, but turned out to be a real, but poorly recorded one rather than a recreation?

December 31st, 2019, 03:30 AM	#31
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? How exactly do you propose to distribute the finished product - as in how are you going to send it to the festival? Have they supplied you with a required format, including the sound? I'm not sure you understand the real fundamentals here. Have you got a 5:1 system, with a sub in your home/studio/edit suite? Do you understand the complexity and the parameters for levels in 5:1? I have a friend who has built a home cinema that cost more than my house, and he spends hours with a measurement mic and specific cinema software tweaking the playback system to give the 'perfect' listening environment for the three seats centre. When I try to sit in the comfy sofa seats at the rear, he moves me to get the best listening environment. He then watches movies that explore the sound space. Usually they're terrible movies, but there are common elements. Movement (audio movement) on speech is minimal. The dialogue irrespective of where the speaking person is in the frame ALWAYS comes from the centre channel. It might focus left or right in the front channels, but the centre channel never loses it - so while there can be movement in the stereo field it's minimal. The rear channels get FX and reverb in the main - and often not even realistic reverb - just space. With a half decent home system this will be evident by listening. I want to pick you up on the idea of 'junior' - that's not what anyone was saying. There is, however a sort of status of job roles, and it's also reflected in the pay for the role. All job roles in our business have a 'level' of sorts, but they really differ in breadth and depth and ultimate importance. They all need different skill sets. Some are progressive jobs, where as your skillset grows, you jump up to the next job on the hierarchical pyramid, where often job areas start to converge. The director, on top of the pyramid has everyone's departments under them - sound, lighting, cameras, editing, set, costume but even marketing and promotion might creep in in some projects. A sparks, or audio person, or the old clapper/loader is on or near the base of the pyramid. It is foolish to compare what a boom swinger does to the person sitting in the studio doing a surround mix. Their contribution to the 'whole' gets weighed, status confirmed and pay awarded. You can infer a level or status, but as they do different jobs in the same department I suspect the surround mixer would indeed by a higher status job role. Not something you could walk in cold to, unlike as you discovered you tried when you did booming. You never mastered it, and didn't become expert - but as you have done this in every role so far, you still have the same status - beginner. I have been in recording studios since I was 16, and while I think I'm competent enough now, I have friends who can do it quicker and often better than me without seeming to even try. One retired early, then got called back out of retirement by his old employer, because a project came up nobody was comfy with. Ryan - surely you know all this? That old topic made me sigh. You seem to have learned zero since you posted it. I'm so tempted to make a rubbish youtube video full of bad advice, wrong terminology and seriously crazy comments and wait for you to link to it. Do you not have any kind of quality filter? You also take everything people say literally, when often they're making ironic comments and you don't pick up on it. I'm very comfy in studios, and I make part of my living from music for moving images and I do not think I would be comfy mixing audio for a movie project in 5:1 stereo. I think I would do it adequately, but if the project were really important, I would make stems, and give these to a real surround mixer. I have the equipment, but I do NOT have the skills to do an effective surround mix that would work in a real cinema setting. I could do it, but it would not have the right levels for one, and it would probably just not work, or work poorly. Stereo, or L/C/R fine - I do these happily, but not 5:1.

December 31st, 2019, 11:47 AM	#32
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? Okay sure. And I can pay for a surround sound or stereo mix if that is better, just trying to cover some areas myself if I can to save money. I also talked to another filmmaker who's film got sold to Netflix, and he said they wanted a 5.1 mix but he just gave them a 3.0 stereo mix, with the other three channels on the 5.1, being empty, and they accepted that. He said just to do that if a distributor asked, since it worked for him. That seems surprising though.

December 31st, 2019, 12:37 PM	#33
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? It would be a lot more sensible if the feature film sound mix is done at a suitably equipped facility. If you have no experience in a key part of a commercial film, it works out cheaper in the long run to get people who know what they're doing. Purchased productions tend to be treated differently to commissioned productions, Netflicks may be less concerned about this than if it was one of their own commissioned productions, in which they have a long term investment.

December 31st, 2019, 12:50 PM	#34
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? Sure, and I can hire someone who knows what they are doing then. But if that is the case, should I pay for a 3.0 or a 5.1 then?

December 31st, 2019, 01:51 PM	#35
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? It depends on your budget. but if go to a proper facility they'll have a mixing suite, because you'll need the loudspeakers, screen etc for the surround sound in order to do a proper theatrical mix. It's not just the person, but the faculties that allows them to do their job. You need to get quotes for planning your budget. I would do a deal with someone with drama experience, because they're likely to be a lot faster than someone without any experience, plus they'll know the delivery requirements.

December 31st, 2019, 02:49 PM	#36
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? Okay sure. I can just record all the sound effects and foley then to save money, and then someone else can do all the engineering and mixing if that's better. As for whether or not a 5.1 lends itself to the story, if we are seeking distribution, is it best to have 5.1 ready to go, regardless, if they want it, whether it lends itself to the story or not?

December 31st, 2019, 03:55 PM	#37
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? Lay your tracks and confirm with whoever is doing the mix the format and how they want it delivered. You're unlikely to get theatrical distribution, steaming or similar is more likely. It may come down to cost in the end, if you can afford to do a good 5:1 mix, that fine, if not go for stereo.

December 31st, 2019, 04:52 PM	#38
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? Oh okay thanks. I didn't think I would get theatrical distribution, but hoped for some kind like Netflix or Amazon, like some other filmmakers I know, have had.

January 1st, 2020, 04:49 AM	#39
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? YOU can record the Foley? I somehow doubt that Ryan. It's yet another totally different area of recording. Do you have the equipment and the facilities? Do you have any experience with it at all? I'd strongly advise you to take a piece of your already recorded stuff - the time machine would work - and mute the sound totally and try to make the noises you had recorded for real. The trees rustling, the car doors slamming, footsteps on pavement and grass. This would be good for you to try, and you never know, you could be good at it. I also find it quite funny that Netflix didn't comment on a 5:1 requirement with no rear or sub channel. Considering how nit picking they are on vision issues, I find this very hard to believe.

January 1st, 2020, 01:59 PM	#40
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? Oh well maybe I am not the best at Foley. I did it on some of my past projects, to save money, but I still got others to do the mix, after the Foley was recorded. Aside from the post mixing, how does my Foley sound in these project clips? Or is it hard to tell with the post mixing done after the Foley? I also did the non-Foley sound effects as well: Trioxin Commercial second copy - YouTube fight sequence foley - YouTube I also did the Foley in this one: Rebecca McGrath : Demo Reel - YouTube

January 1st, 2020, 04:07 PM	#41
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? What did you actually do? I'm guessing the obvious stuff in the fight sequence where the baseball bats are flying, but it's difficult to tell what was live and what was recreated. The impression is the general sound was a little 'raw' - so some bits sounded very clean, like the drink can opening. For what it's worth - I'd hang onto the girl and grandad in the last sequence. The best two actors in those clips. I'd also say that none of those clips would do very well in 5:1, nothing much for the rear channels to do.

January 1st, 2020, 05:50 PM	#43
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? Before you get super wrapped up in this (or anything else), you should make sure the other director is even going to allow you to make those types of decisions. You've already mentioned how you've been overridden on other things and relegated to a much smaller role than you'd initially imagined. Does he/she have any idea you're thinking about this, or star filters, or any of the rest? You might get a rude awakening if these things have not been discussed. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

January 1st, 2020, 05:52 PM	#44
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? Yes I have gone over it with him. Of course I am no sound mixing expert by any means, but he says that since I know more about the sound part of things, he says, he is allowing me to make those decisions so far.

January 2nd, 2020, 03:37 AM	#45
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case? Until you get it wrong, Ryan. Remember people get very protective when their ideas get messed up by somebody else. Going back to Foley - I meant which of the sounds we heard were real, and which ones did you create in your studio? Difficult to comment on a sound that was a bit weak, but turned out to be a real, but poorly recorded one rather than a recreation?