Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film or no in this case?

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Where did you get this notion? That's a very strange thing to do in my experience. In a typical movie theatre the left and right speakers can be maybe 20m apart? Having voices that travel this far sounds bizarre, so the centre speaker does the work and the soundstage is shrunk - maybe 30% left to right, so that wherever you sit you can hear. Remember that each shot should sound similar, and if you start doing this panning thing you then get very strange location shifts. Imagine you breaking your 180 degree rule, would left suddenly flip to be right? If sound follows location then it should, but that will shake the audience. As a general rule, sound stays broadly mono from people's mouths. If you need to create a more realistic stereo field, then you cannot do this for each shot because the cuts really shock the listener. So you need audio that flows gently from shot to shot, meaning dialogue is rarely much more than mono. Footsteps and other Foley-esque sound can be panned wide, or plonked in the rear to match the shot, but it's just not normal to pan voices in this way. Even worse - if the camera pans left to re-centre the actor - would you then move it again? Hence my concern you're going to make the sound simply horrible to listen to. What have you decided - mono dialogue and sound effects, or realism and static cameras and moving people, or what?

You cannot attempt to place people in each shot, because the next shot comes along and ruins it!

Oh okay, well when I watch a movie that has surround sound in the mix, on blu ray for example, if an actor is on say the left side of the screen, I can hear the dialogue come more from the left. If an actor moves to the right, I can hear the dialogue grow more to the right. So I thought that was normal then. I just try to judge matching where the actors are on the screen, to where it would therefore sound in the channels. Should I just keep all the dialogue in the center channel then, no matter where the actors are in the room?

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

I wouldn't start doing a a 5.1 mix on a feature film unless I was mixing in an appropriately equipped sound environment. Given the thread on the wind noise on your microphone, why do you believe you've got the skills to do a 5.1 mix sound track of a feature film?

Oh well that wind microphone issue is a completely different issue than mixing in 5.1. I just think it seems like apples and oranges and one has nothing to do with the other, since booming is a very different skill than post mixing, isn't it?

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

I do lots of show tracks - either backing tracks or click tracks for theatres, and until you get used to big spaces, your mixes usually have a huge hole in the middle, where things seem to vanish into - hence I expect, Cinema evolved with a centre channel which is the critical one. If you mix in 'stereo' - good old fashioned left/right, it's vital to leave things that are critical as mono, unless it's for effect. music and effects can explore greater width, but dialogue is centre.

Oh okay, well if I am to do stereo, I was told to a 3.0 stereo mix, for theaters. So not left/right, but left/center/right, or so I was told. Is that better?

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

It's just that wind going into a mic, is different than where an actor is in the room, so I thought that one had nothing to do with the other, when it comes to doing a mix.

It reveals your lack off knowledge or even awareness of the issues that will arise dong a mix on a feature film. One is the junior end of the sound crew, while the other is at the top end of the department.I hope you don't have a tight schedule because you're probably be at it for months as you learn what you're doing, if you're doing a decent soundtrack, even in stereo.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, well to say that the mic/boom operator is at the junior end of the crew, and the post production sound mixer, is at the top, I never thought of one area as higher than the other, just different areas. That's like saying that a camera operator is at the junior end, and a post colorist is at the top. I never thought of it that way, just different areas.

For example, people have mentioned that my camera operating is bad, but not my post color grading, which makes me think maybe I am better at that area. So I thought I didn't need to one different area, in order to advance in another.

[Brian Drysdale]

The camera operator does more than point the camera, but they may not be the DP which is higher in the department (although the DP can be doing both jobs). There are also levels in being a colourist, because the levels of detail that you can become involved with the colour correction increases with higher end productions. .
The knowledge required by the sound mixer is much higher than that of the boom operator because they need to have overall control of the sound track , also they need to be more creative than the boom operator together with the interpersonal skills to deal with directors, producers and people in the editorial department.

If you had to pay these people you'd notice the difference pretty quickly.

[Allan Black]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

I am co-directing a feature film, and one of the areas I wanted to cover, is whether or not it's worth it to have a 5.1 mix for sending it into festivals. I talked to the post sound mixer, and he said not to bother paying for a 5.1 mix, unless a distributor specifically asks for one. For festivals, just a 3.0 stereo mix is good.

But do you think that's true though? I just wanted other confirmation that this is the way to go when trying to make a good impression at festivals?

Outdoor festivals *sigh* After years introducing new model Ford cars to their dealers, sound for outdoor festivals can be a crap shoot, every one will be different.

We ended up flying ‘everything’ around Aust. in a Bristol Freighter. It flew cattle around outback Qld. we called the 23yr old pilot, Biggles.

He’d never flown below the Qld. border. I remember flying up the Murray River between the trees, with an NRMA road map on Biggles knee, looking for the steeple on the Shepparton Town Hall.

Whatever format you end up mixing in, do another safety mono mix with the voice track prominent. Contact someone you can trust at each festival clue them in, and pray they know what they’re doing on the night.

Cheers.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Let me help translate. When Ryan says
“Should I do a 5.1 mix for a feature film?”
He means I’m going to do surround sound, followed by whole bunch of questions on how to do it despite your protestations.

A long time ago he started a similar subject about trying to record surround sound dialogue by position mics all over the a room. Edit: Found it! https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-thi...d-effects.html

[Ryan Elder]

Well is there anything wrong with me asking more questions about it? I just want to know all the pros and cons of 5.1 vs. stereo before making the best decision. I just don't understand why a lot of filmmakers choose stereo over 5.1 and do not see the advantage. I am told don't do 5.1 unless it's specifically requested by a distributor down the line, but if you are going to do stereo, why not go for the 5.1 anyway then? What's the advantage of stereo over 5.1?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

You seem to be going off on tangents like star filters and now surround sound when you haven’t mastered the basics.

To reiterate what others have already said:

1. You don’t have the skill, experience, or budget to do a proper surround sound mix.

2. Surround sound will not help you in a film festival. You will be judged on the over all merits of your film.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay thanks. Well I am asking questions based on what I think may be good for the next project. Not meaning to sound like I am going off on tangents. I can of course hire someone to do the mixing as well, just wondering which mix would be best, or maybe I could have both done.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay, well when I watch a movie that has surround sound in the mix, on blu ray for example, if an actor is on say the left side of the screen, I can hear the dialogue come more from the left. If an actor moves to the right, I can hear the dialogue grow more to the right. So I thought that was normal then. I just try to judge matching where the actors are on the screen, to where it would therefore sound in the channels...

No.
Dialog.Is.Center.
Dialog is center - that’s the convention.

Your perceptions are complex and are influenced by what you see and expect. Put on headphones and close your eyes; you’ll find that dialog is center.

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Well is there anything wrong with me asking more questions about it? I just want to know all the pros and cons of 5.1 vs. stereo before making the best decision. I just don't understand why a lot of filmmakers choose stereo over 5.1 and do not see the advantage. I am told don't do 5.1 unless it's specifically requested by a distributor down the line, but if you are going to do stereo, why not go for the 5.1 anyway then? What's the advantage of stereo over 5.1?

Compatibility, predictability, and a less complex workflow and set of standards. If you’re considering mixing dialog to L and R depending on characters’ screen position you’ve not yet gained sufficient skills in mixing for stereo or L-C-R.

Don’t let your grasp exceed your reach, or you’ll hurt what you’re trying to help. Be conservative about sound. All the pros are conservative about sound, because they want to be hired back. Doing a great mono mix is better than explorations of 5.1.

Some dedicated study may help you bring focus to sound. There are online courses, there are college/trade school courses, there are some excellent books- have you read Jay Rose’s books? There’s learning to be had in careful listening.

Edit: never mind. I hit the link in Pete’s post #22 above and realized we *have* been all through this at length back in May. Maybe you should review it. Many sorts of working professionals shared accepted best practices 7 mos. ago...

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay thanks. I reviewed that previous post as well, but thought that post talked mostly about 5.1 only and not 3.0 stereo. I think this is my first time asking about 3.0 stereo.

I also thought about doing a mono mix as well, but was advised by others, don't ever do a mono mix when wanting to show off a feature film, if that's true.

As for as dialog being in the center only, I was also going by what this person said before in the video:

5 Dangers of Mixing in 5.1 Surround - YouTube

In the video at about 2:35 into the clip, he says do not have the dialog in the center and have a little of it in the right and left channels. Is that true what he is saying?

I can read Jay Rose's books, thanks!

I also keep hearing that you need 5.1 for DCPs at some festivals, but I also listened to some films at a film festival I attended, and I could swear a lot of them were in stereo. I tried looking up the sound mixes of those movies on the Imdb specs, but none of them have the sound mixes listed, almost as if the filmmakers didn't want to say...

[Pete Cofrancesco]

He says center dialogue is the convention but he breaks the rule puts a little in the other channels. Maybe for your first film with surround sound you should stick to convention. But at your level of film making you can experiment with anything you want. Again you keep asking us whether you should do things you fully intend to do.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh I don't have to do anything, I just want to know some pros and cons of things that's all. Like if someone tells me don't bother with surround and just do stereo, I still don't know what the advantage of stereo is over it.

[Brian Drysdale]

You will find the answer to that earlier in the thread regarding festivals, where centre speaker forr stereo was brought up and the variable quality of sound systems was discussed.

Given your statements regarding directing e.g. having difficulties directing actors and needing to plan everything with a storyboard, I suspect you may find similar issues when trying to do surround sound, when stereo is difficult enough.

Regarding the very slight amounts of dialogue in the left and right, use your ears and ensure that your speakers are correctly set up at the correct volume in a suitable mixing space. However, if in doubt, keep the dialogue in the centre, especially since you've never mixed for a theatre; the first screening is not the best place to discover something doesn't work. Plus, it's not totally your film.

If you need to keep asking on the forum how you do things, perhaps you shouldn't be doing this with a feature film. Shorts are good for practicing these things,