Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?

Brian Drysdale · May 28th, 2019, 07:22 AM

Recording the atmos track in stereo is pretty standard on a drama it gives a bed into which you can place your sound effects. It gives a sense of acoustic space to your location.

Don't confuse the atmos track with the sound effects. like clothing rustle or gun cocking etc

Rick Reineke · May 28th, 2019, 08:16 AM

Don't confuse the atmos track with the sound effects. like clothing rustle or gun cocking etc
- Not to be confused with 'room tone' either.

Paul R Johnson · May 28th, 2019, 10:01 AM

It does seem the later sections of this topic are pretty useful - so much content and facts. The most boring short term contract I had was driving to locations, setting up an M/S mic and recording atmosphere. Sometimes, the lack of sounds to record meant I had hardly anything specific - no birds or even insects sometimes, and these tracks, even though they were kind of 'nothing' actually made the studio stuff sound so much more real. Does silence actually have a sound?

Patrick Tracy · May 28th, 2019, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

Okay thanks. As for recording atmos sound, why do I need to record that in stereo? I've been recording it in mono before with no problems, but what's the reason to record it in stereo?

Before I just used a shotgun on mono and that was it. Any surround sound mixing was done after.

I would record in stereo. Then you have the option of collapsing it to mono or of processing it to multichannel. I don't see a mono track being as useful in a surround mix. Disclaimer: I do live music videos more than videos with dialog and atmospheric audio, so that might not be the "right" answer for your type of production.

Ryan Elder · May 28th, 2019, 06:29 PM

Oh okay thanks, but why is stereo better than mono? It seems to me that since I am pasting the room tone track into all of the surround sound tracks, it doesn't make a difference if it's stereo or not for me, so I was wondering what is better about it specifically?

With my current mics, I don't think I will be able to record stereo, cause I only have a hyper and a shotgun, and they are both mono. I could record with both simultaneously to make a stereo track but the room tone would sound different in both mics I am guessing?

Patrick Tracy · May 28th, 2019, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

Oh okay thanks, but why is stereo better than mono? It seems to me that since I am pasting the room tone track into all of the surround sound tracks, it doesn't make a difference if it's stereo or not for me, so I was wondering what is better about it specifically?

With my current mics, I don't think I will be able to record stereo, cause I only have a hyper and a shotgun, and they are both mono. I could record with both simultaneously to make a stereo track but the room tone would sound different in both mics I am guessing?

Putting the same signal into all 5 or 7 surround tracks defeats the purpose of surround, which is to have different (though often related) signal coming from different places.

Depending on your source audio and desired result you might be able to use different portions of the same audio file in different tracks to simulate a surrounding space.

(Again, I do live music videos, so take with a grain of salt. But that's what I'd do in your situation.)

Pete Cofrancesco · May 28th, 2019, 08:53 PM

So how long do you plan on keeping this up? Seems like you’re dedicating a lot of time and energy to something for free. I assume you’re hoping to win an award at film festival but I think the odds are very low.

Brian Drysdale · May 29th, 2019, 01:39 AM

The way to go is M /S, it's the standard film recording technique for the stereo.

https://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/

Googling "m/s stereo film sound" will give you a number of references for the different mic combinations that will work with it.

I hope the script writer has put as much work into rewriting numerous drafts as you've been in asking technical questions,

Ryan Elder · May 29th, 2019, 06:59 AM

Oh sorry, if I've been asking too many questions, I just wanted to get the best sound possible, and some concepts I feel there are certain exceptions and just wanted to be clear about the exceptions, that's all.

Well I can just do what I've been doing before then and just record with the boom mic, and record mono for room tone.

As for the notion that I shouldn't put a mono track into every channel in surround sound, I thought I should for room tone, so the whole room has it, but maybe I'm wrong.

Brian Drysdale · May 29th, 2019, 07:05 AM

The sound on the right and left sides is slightly different, but no one is stopping doing it your way.

Roger Gunkel · May 29th, 2019, 10:57 AM

I hate to think how many hours you have put into asking your questions and reading answers, but sound is about hearing, not reading. You would now be better off spending a similar amount of time actually getting out there with you sound recorders and mics, trying out different scenarios and techniques, then actually listening to the results and analysing what works for you and what doesn't.

You can ask questions and read answers for ever, but nothing beats actually doing it!

Roger

Patrick Tracy · May 29th, 2019, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

As for the notion that I shouldn't put a mono track into every channel in surround sound, I thought I should for room tone, so the whole room has it, but maybe I'm wrong.

You could do that, but in real life the sound coming from different directions is different, even if the difference is small.

Paul R Johnson · May 29th, 2019, 03:41 PM

I'm struggling a bit with the way you use jargon. "Room Tone" is one I hate because it means different things to different people. if I record with a boom, I normally record with a mono mic on the camera too. I never record with a stereo mic on the camera because of the weirdness it produces when the camera pans. Room tone - for me - is simply the sound of the room. It does NOT include dialogue, or physical practical sound from doors, things and people moving. I've heard people talking about room sound, but my rule book says room sound is just the absence of nothing and the capturing of something that can be used to fill gaps and sound exactly like an open mic sounds. These kinds of things are bandied about by students, as buzz words and smart-arse jargon. Not just sound, but the camera and lighting people do it too. That's probably why I make it up - like my hairy sausage.

As for surround - isn't this totally and utterly contrived and manufactured? Do people try to capture real surround? I thought most had given up on that quest. It works pretty well on a solitary static camera, but how do you deal with real surround in the edit? It's like my never using a stereo mic on a camera habit. If the camera pans, does the surround pan with it/ If you do, it's like turning your head - everything moves relative. But what about cuts/ Does the ticking clock on the right snap to centre, or does it stay right and be wrong.

Patrick Tracy · May 29th, 2019, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

As for surround - isn't this totally and utterly contrived and manufactured? Do people try to capture real surround? I thought most had given up on that quest. It works pretty well on a solitary static camera, but how do you deal with real surround in the edit? It's like my never using a stereo mic on a camera habit. If the camera pans, does the surround pan with it/ If you do, it's like turning your head - everything moves relative. But what about cuts/ Does the ticking clock on the right snap to centre, or does it stay right and be wrong.

I suspect in the vast majority of cases surround is manufactured rather than captured. It just isn't practical or necessary to capture it as it happens.

In my little corner of video production, live music, it isn't completely inconceivable to capture surround, or at least capture stereo and process it into surround. Even when the video perspective shifts the audio perspective remains "in the audience," so it makes sense to capture rather than manufacture.

Brian Drysdale · May 29th, 2019, 04:40 PM

I suspect that's why they record using M/S, since it gives you options in post. This is probably a drama thing, where everything is constructed in post, the days when stereo was recorded on say the average BBC programme are gone, they are recorded mono, even if going out in stereo.

The ticking clock would be on a separate effects track, where it goes may depend on if you can see it in the shot or if it's dramatically important. On my film we had gun shots flying over the audience, which was fun.

May 28th, 2019, 07:22 AM	#121
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Recording the atmos track in stereo is pretty standard on a drama it gives a bed into which you can place your sound effects. It gives a sense of acoustic space to your location. Don't confuse the atmos track with the sound effects. like clothing rustle or gun cocking etc

May 28th, 2019, 08:16 AM	#122
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,039	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Don't confuse the atmos track with the sound effects. like clothing rustle or gun cocking etc - Not to be confused with 'room tone' either.

May 28th, 2019, 10:01 AM	#123
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,049	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? It does seem the later sections of this topic are pretty useful - so much content and facts. The most boring short term contract I had was driving to locations, setting up an M/S mic and recording atmosphere. Sometimes, the lack of sounds to record meant I had hardly anything specific - no birds or even insects sometimes, and these tracks, even though they were kind of 'nothing' actually made the studio stuff sound so much more real. Does silence actually have a sound?

May 28th, 2019, 06:29 PM	#125
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Oh okay thanks, but why is stereo better than mono? It seems to me that since I am pasting the room tone track into all of the surround sound tracks, it doesn't make a difference if it's stereo or not for me, so I was wondering what is better about it specifically? With my current mics, I don't think I will be able to record stereo, cause I only have a hyper and a shotgun, and they are both mono. I could record with both simultaneously to make a stereo track but the room tone would sound different in both mics I am guessing?

May 28th, 2019, 08:53 PM	#127
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? So how long do you plan on keeping this up? Seems like you’re dedicating a lot of time and energy to something for free. I assume you’re hoping to win an award at film festival but I think the odds are very low.

May 29th, 2019, 01:39 AM	#128
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? The way to go is M /S, it's the standard film recording technique for the stereo. https://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/ Googling "m/s stereo film sound" will give you a number of references for the different mic combinations that will work with it. I hope the script writer has put as much work into rewriting numerous drafts as you've been in asking technical questions,

May 29th, 2019, 06:59 AM	#129
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Oh sorry, if I've been asking too many questions, I just wanted to get the best sound possible, and some concepts I feel there are certain exceptions and just wanted to be clear about the exceptions, that's all. Well I can just do what I've been doing before then and just record with the boom mic, and record mono for room tone. As for the notion that I shouldn't put a mono track into every channel in surround sound, I thought I should for room tone, so the whole room has it, but maybe I'm wrong.

May 29th, 2019, 07:05 AM	#130
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? The sound on the right and left sides is slightly different, but no one is stopping doing it your way.

May 29th, 2019, 10:57 AM	#131
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? I hate to think how many hours you have put into asking your questions and reading answers, but sound is about hearing, not reading. You would now be better off spending a similar amount of time actually getting out there with you sound recorders and mics, trying out different scenarios and techniques, then actually listening to the results and analysing what works for you and what doesn't. You can ask questions and read answers for ever, but nothing beats actually doing it! Roger

May 29th, 2019, 03:41 PM	#133
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,049	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? I'm struggling a bit with the way you use jargon. "Room Tone" is one I hate because it means different things to different people. if I record with a boom, I normally record with a mono mic on the camera too. I never record with a stereo mic on the camera because of the weirdness it produces when the camera pans. Room tone - for me - is simply the sound of the room. It does NOT include dialogue, or physical practical sound from doors, things and people moving. I've heard people talking about room sound, but my rule book says room sound is just the absence of nothing and the capturing of something that can be used to fill gaps and sound exactly like an open mic sounds. These kinds of things are bandied about by students, as buzz words and smart-arse jargon. Not just sound, but the camera and lighting people do it too. That's probably why I make it up - like my hairy sausage. As for surround - isn't this totally and utterly contrived and manufactured? Do people try to capture real surround? I thought most had given up on that quest. It works pretty well on a solitary static camera, but how do you deal with real surround in the edit? It's like my never using a stereo mic on a camera habit. If the camera pans, does the surround pan with it/ If you do, it's like turning your head - everything moves relative. But what about cuts/ Does the ticking clock on the right snap to centre, or does it stay right and be wrong.

May 29th, 2019, 04:40 PM	#135
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? I suspect that's why they record using M/S, since it gives you options in post. This is probably a drama thing, where everything is constructed in post, the days when stereo was recorded on say the average BBC programme are gone, they are recorded mono, even if going out in stereo. The ticking clock would be on a separate effects track, where it goes may depend on if you can see it in the shot or if it's dramatically important. On my film we had gun shots flying over the audience, which was fun.