Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?

[Brian Drysdale]

Hi Paul. that sounds interesting.

Are you doing the panto?

[Paul R Johnson]

Yes - I'm the Company Manager - so I have 18 of the theatre's people to look after, and then we have a technical team of two sound and three stage people. Pretty much the same people each time - my 12th I think. My job description just says 'make it happen'. Give me a yell nearer the time.

We get iTV and BBC crews in all the time, and no matter where they are recording, the standard mics are short shotguns. the only time we ever saw hypers was on a round table live link for the BBC back in probably 2010 when they produced half a dozen Beyer M201s, which worked very well on table stands. I bought one myself after that - and it works well on a boom - but there are no huge side vents like poor Ryan's AT.

[Brian Drysdale]

The only recordist I know who uses a hyper type mic tends to specialize in dramas, but he used one on a boom when we were shooting a broad room meeting for a documentary.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks, I've used the hyper with the Zeppelin before and no wind issues there, so I need to find a better wind protection for it, and then it should work I think. I will also see if I can find a technician who can have a look at it.

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Ryan, you're still not quite there. Shotguns enable you to capture from further away and get a similar sound, but this of course means you need more gain. More gain brings up a gentle present into something more aggressive. Outside wind rarely maintains a constant direction so big wind protection is the norm.

Of course there are reasons to use a hyper. Two people too far apart for a shotgun to cover without moving, a noisy set can make the shotgun a winner with the ability to concentrate capture on a small areas. Four or five in a group is tricky for a shotgun so we use a hyper. Practical decisions the experienced sound guy makes on the day, after looking at the setup. Best tool for the job.
.

You say that the hyper you don't have to move with two people too far away with the shotgun, but I find the hyper to still be pretty directional, and you still have to move it. Or am I wrong, and you don't have to move it much between two people? It sounds like I do when I boom with it, unless I'm wrong.

As for turning up the gain, I thought I found I had to turn up the gain slightly more on the hyper since the range was not as far with it compared to the shotgun, but maybe I'm wrong there.

[Brian Drysdale]

You may need to move a hyper in closer compared to a shotgun. The gain requirement may also vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, so I wouldn't expect it to remain the same.

In the end, it's whatever works and gives the best quality audio that you can achieve.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. Overall I find that the NTG-3 shotgun, may have slightly better quality sound, than the AT4053b, but sometimes the background noise, like a vent or a fridge, you are not allowed to turn off, is further in the background with the hyper. Is this common, with hypers vs. shotguns? It's slight, so not sure how much of a difference it makes though.

[Richard Crowley]

Congratulations, you have demonstrated for yourself why we keep saying that hypercardioid microphones perform better indoors, while long shotguns perform better outdoors. But you don't indicate that you have recognized yet the difference between outdoors and indoors. We are guessing from your comment about refrigerators and vents that you are talking about recording indoors.

Remember that "indoors" and "outdoors" are only handy generalizations. If you are "indoors" but the nearest reflective surface is 100 feet away, then "outdoor" rules apply. This is the mode for gigantic sound-stages where the only thing within 50 feet was the floor, and even the distant walls were deadened with foot-thick sound-absorbing material.

And conversely, if you are miles out in the wilderness, perhaps the middle of the Sahara desert, but you have hard light reflectors (and or blockers) all around you for the cinematographer, then "indoor" rules apply because hard reflectors are equally good at reflecting sound. And that precludes using a long (i.e. interference tube) shotgun microphone.

[Brian Drysdale]

Use your ears and use whichever mic gives the best results in a particular situation - listen carefully..

[Roger Gunkel]

Guys, there seems to be a sort of fatal fascination with this thread. There are now 250 posts spread over 17 pages so far with microscopic detailed answers, but basically the same questions going round and round and round ad infinitum.

There is no evidence that any of the suggestions being made are actually being tested and tried by Ryan, although he seems to have the time to endlessly type rather than getting out in the real world with some boxes of gear and actually spending time with hands on learning. Is there actually a real project going on, or is it just something Ryan would like to do at some point in the future? If it is a real project, then he needs to be encouraged to try one thing at a time in response to each question and answer, then come back with audio and video results to show that he is taking it in and understanding it all. All of this sounds like a college audio course with no work actually being done by the student for teachers, us, to actually judge his results and justify the amount of time all the contributors have put in.

It's time to cut Ryan loose in my opinion and let him get out there!

Roger

[Ryan Elder]

Oh sorry, I didn't meant to imply that I wasn't doing tests, I've done tests with the mics over the years, and preferred the hyper indoors, mostly because of background sound being a little more in the background, but have always had wind issues with while tilting from actor to actor... But I would cut around that cause usually the noise would be over before the next actor spoke.

One thing I did for other people's shoots was to put the hyper mic in the Zeppelin but but it in backwards, so I wouldn't have six extra inches of room in the Zeppelin, and therefore get closer. But I figured this looked unprofessional and weird for others likely.

[Paul R Johnson]

Who cares if it works? I've seen people put an entire lav TX pack and an omni inside a zepplin. I understand looking professional, but hardly anyone would notice the handle pointing the wrong way. Any ham fisted bodge that works is a win.

Ryan - do you have a toolbox? Do you have a favourite screwdriver? no reason it's your favourite, but its the one you would like to lose the least. Sometimes you use others when they'd be more suitable, but you go back to the tired, beaten old one. Just how life is, I guess.

[Graham Bernard]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Any ham fisted bodge that works is a win.......Do you have a favourite screwdriver? no reason it's your favourite, .....Just how life is, I guess.

Now THATS plain East Anglian advice. Paul, luv it!

What are we up to now, on this Thread? 20 pages on the Binternet? I’ve learnt stacks from the input of others. DVInfo, where the World Comes to Share The Vision.

[Paul R Johnson]

I was in a theatre on the east coast last week, and decided to gut the control room because I could not fit the new kit for the next three months shows in. I found a cable with a join in it. A lump of messy green tape, and a knot. It fed the show intercom loop. No need to investigate. I remembered doing it with a kitchen knife, and twisting the bare ends together to 'fix it' ten minutes before a Paul Daniels show in ............ 1984. No solder. No connectors. Just two bits of bare ended mic cable. 35 years of crackle free DC and audio. Nowadays we throw a panic attack if cable isn't oxygen free, or we accidentally recorded at 44.1 instead of 96K.

This topic (and other recent ones) does bring back the basics. This quest for no hum, no noise and absolute silence. At some point, it's good enough for what you need and people forget. At a gig on Friday night my fender jazz toppled off it's stand and slapped into the ground. Big chip out of the headstock, but it broke the volume pot. Totally dead. Got out my spare for the first time in years, and used that one. The sound guy said it was better sounding than the fender. I didn't say but it was also different to play, actually easier, with a lower jazz action than the fender set up to play harder. I've fixed the fender. Which one do I play next show? The easier to play and better sounding number two? No, back to the fender because it looks better with the set of fluorescent strings that glow in the LED lights. Sound is NOT everything.

[Brian Drysdale]

Or if the look on set is vital to you there are options that may give the desired appearance.

https://mymic.rycote.com/devices/at-4053a-at-4053b/

Other brands are available.

[Paul R Johnson]

interesting - the fact there are numerous systems for this mic suggests that it's a worthy mic for the design and build of the products, and of course, absolutely needs them because it's too sensitive to wind!